HELP PLEASE-ADVICE ON QUADRAFIRE INSERT

[JeremyG]

This is my second year heating my home with a Quadrafire woodburing insert, and I am just not pleased with the performance. It is advertised to heat 1700 square feet, and after 2-3 hours of buring, I am lucky if the living room is warm. The house is a 55 years old Colonial, older windows, with a nice staircase in the living room that should draw some heat upstairs. The upstairs attic door is capped nicely to prevent any chimney effect to the outside. The gentleman at the store refused to sell me the blower unit the first 3 months of last year, because he stated that it "would be way to hot", and that I didn't need it. If I don't have the blower on at full speed at all times, there is NO point in even having the unit on!

I was wondering if you could offer me any advice or burning strategies to increase performance. Here are the circumstances:

-Always use dry, hard-wood (purchase 50%, cut and dry myself 50%)
-Burn with the throttle at about 50%-75% open. I am afraid that with the air vent fully open that I would overfire the box
-Blower Fan always on
-Stacking the wood all the way to the ceiling of the box
-Wood is always stored in my covered rack outdoors


Any help you can provide would be awesome. Thank you. Are the older windows making THAT much of a difference? They do have new storm windows as a barrier that are about 10 years old.

 

[jkupcha]

When the fires is going properly and the blower is on, how hot is the air coming out of the blower? If there is a good quantity of air and it is warm, then I suspect the problem isn't the unit.

 

[Todd]

What kind of fireplace is it installed in? Do you have a block off plate? How is your draft? What kind of burn times?

 

[JeremyG]

The insert is in a masonary fireplace and the draft is excellent. I think they cut the plate out when they installed the liner, is that possible? The air is very hot that is blowing out....just not enough of it! I don't know what use the insert is without the extremely loud blower out 24/7. (salesperson said there was no way in hell I needed a blower) Thanks for the help.

 

[Todd]

The insert is in a masonary fireplace and the draft is excellent. I think they cut the plate out when they installed the liner, is that possible? The air is very hot that is blowing out....just not enough of it! I don't know what use the insert is without the extremely loud blower out 24/7. (salesperson said there was no way in hell I needed a blower) Thanks for the help.

Sounds like they cut the old damper out so the liner would fit through and connect to the stove. Can you take the surround off and look up and see if they installed anything to fill that gap between the liner and space where the damper was? This is where a block off plate would keep the heat from the insert going up the chimney. Also a blower is essential with an insert in my opinion. Without it , too much heat goes up and not out. Have you tried using the blower at lower speeds?

 

[begreen]

It's possible that a lot, possibly even most, of the heat is going upstairs. Can you describe the first floor plan, ceiling height and size in sq. ft.? How large is the house and how well insulated is it? What type of heating system is in the house? What were/are the typical heating bills before the stove was installed? (if you can give the gallons of oil or number of therms that would be very helpful).

 

[yukiginger]

I've heard many times of dealers telling customers they won't need a blower with their insert. I think they're nuts. Just look at the things! They are stuck back into the fireplace with a surround sealing off the rest of the opening, preventing room air from circulating around it.

The above messages are already pointing you in the right direction. Check those things and think about where your hot air is going (into the house and out the windows, etc.). Also consider that the unit might just not be able to heat your house independent of your other sources.

MarkG

 

[JeremyG]

You walk through the front door into the living room where the insert is. To the left is the staircase going upstairs..central hall, 3 bedrooms all around 12*14 and a bathroom with a vaulted ceiling. I made an insulated cap that is pulled down over the folding attic steps. There is no insulation in the walls of this older home, but the attic is pretty well insulated. On the first floor, the dining room is next to the living room, and the kitchen around the corner is FREEZING. The dining room benefits a little from the insert, but that is all on the first floor. The house had oil fired radiators..175 gallon tank whick I fill about 2 times a season.

Thanks for you help. If it is all going upstairs, that would be fine....but the upstairs is frigid too.

 

[JeremyG]

Todd,

Thanks for the message. I was with the gentleman when he installed it. I know he didn't put a block off plate in there. He just used a reciprocating saw to cut out the old damper. Would this plate help a lot? I know it was a pretty tight fit through that damper opening to fit my liner, but I know there is open space on each side.

 

[begreen]

What model Quadrafire insert is installed JG? (BTW, you were 100% right about getting the blower.)

The actual square footage of the house would really help, but based on the description, it sounds like a big old, poorly insulated box. How are the windows? Single or double pane? Are there storm windows?

Actually, 350 gallons of oil, in a say 2000 sq ft house, that isn't bad for PA. But based on the description, insulation and good windows are your best investment here.

 

[JeremyG]

Thanks for all the feedback from everyone, I appreciate it.

The windows are single pain, with storm windows. The sq footage is about 1500. It is a big, cold box...you are correct. The hardwood floors make it even colder. I told my wife that our house is built on a glacier. The 350 gallons isn't keeping us warm either.

 

[JeremyG]

The insert is a 3100...Virtually no smoke ever comes out of the chimney...so the reburn technology must be working.

 

[nshif]

Besides insulation you need a block of plate with some type of insulation on top of it. Without it you are loseing alot of heat up the chimney. Heres more info
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/wiki/Why_damper_seal_is_needed/

 

[begreen]

That's a fabulous insert, but too small to address the the heat loss. If the house was tight, the 3100 might carry the load, but I suspect not when it is really cold. It's rating is up to 2000 sq ft., but the key words are "up to". There is a huge difference from 2000 sq ft in CA to the same in PA.

Getting a proper block off plate installed will help retain heat at the stove and is a good first step. Even if you get a larger stove you'll still want one.

But ultimately, the solution is to either add more brute force heat or to stop heating outdoors. Have you considered having an energy audit done on the house? It could be a very good investment.

 

[TMonter]

Can you post some pictures of your installation and how the main room is laid out?

I have a 3100i and can easily overheat my whole main level and upstairs with the stove.

Also are there a lot of single pane windows in your main room with the fireplace? How much insulation in the attic?

 

[Todd]

Todd,

Thanks for the message. I was with the gentleman when he installed it. I know he didn't put a block off plate in there. He just used a reciprocating saw to cut out the old damper. Would this plate help a lot? I know it was a pretty tight fit through that damper opening to fit my liner, but I know there is open space on each side.

Yes!

 

[begreen]

tmonther, an you help JP with the burning question? Where do you set the air control once a full load is burning? Does your stove burn hotter with reduced primary air?

JP, I forgot to ask, was the stove installed with a full liner to the top of the chimney? Is the fireplace chimney on an inside or outside wall?

 

[TMonter]

Actually most of the time I burn my stove the the primary air control pushed about 1/3 to 1/4 in which isn't that much above minimum fire. I only use secondary air during startup from coals or at a new fire starting. When it gets below 20 degrees we usually run it at half or 2/3 open. It runs full bore when the temps drop below 10 F.

However my front room is double pane (not low-e) glass and I just rebuilt the windows this year since the sills all rotted out (Previous owner did not take care of them).

A few questions with the Quad:

Do fires start easily from dead cold? (IE good draft)

Have you measured your chimney temperature at the outlet? I run about 250-310 at my Chimney exit (up on the roof)

Is the baffle board installed correctly? Is the fiber blanket centered on top of the ceramic baffle board? (take some pictures inside the stove if possible).

I don't have a tight fitting blockoff plate in mine (because of ZC recommendations) but I do have 2600 degree ceramic fiber stuffed about 1' up into the space between the chimney and the liner. This way I have a extremely tight gas seal. I also packed the top 1' of the chimney where the liner exits with ceramic wool. My liner is insulated with 1/2" of 2600 degree ceramic wool as well.

I don't have a blower.

 

[granpajohn]

From a Quad 4100i perspective....
1. I have (rather minor) complaints about my Quadrafire insert, but lack of heat isn't one of them.
2. I believe the blower is standard on the 4100i. After growing up with inserts, I knew the blower was a must-have item.
3. Running the blower on full speed so much cools the stove. The Quad manual points this out and gives rough draft-vs-blower speed settings. I use a stove thermometer to keep an eye on this. I keep the blower purring gently most of the time. (And no it isn't all that loud.) My ceiling fan does the rest. You are very correct about the need for the blower.

 

[xnetdoodx]

This is my second year heating my home with a Quadrafire woodburing insert, and I am just not pleased with the performance. It is advertised to heat 1700 square feet, and after 2-3 hours of buring, I am lucky if the living room is warm. The house is a 55 years old Colonial, older windows, with a nice staircase in the living room that should draw some heat upstairs. The upstairs attic door is capped nicely to prevent any chimney effect to the outside. The gentleman at the store refused to sell me the blower unit the first 3 months of last year, because he stated that it "would be way to hot", and that I didn't need it. If I don't have the blower on at full speed at all times, there is NO point in even having the unit on!

I was wondering if you could offer me any advice or burning strategies to increase performance. Here are the circumstances:

-Always use dry, hard-wood (purchase 50%, cut and dry myself 50%)
-Burn with the throttle at about 50%-75% open. I am afraid that with the air vent fully open that I would overfire the box
-Blower Fan always on
-Stacking the wood all the way to the ceiling of the box
-Wood is always stored in my covered rack outdoors


Any help you can provide would be awesome. Thank you. Are the older windows making THAT much of a difference? They do have new storm windows as a barrier that are about 10 years old.

I asked the same question a few days ago because of dissappointment in my monster 5100i. I have NO block off plate but should have one installed by tomorrow and hope that this corrects my issue. I will keep you posted as to my results.

 

[iceman]

This is my second year heating my home with a Quadrafire woodburing insert, and I am just not pleased with the performance. It is advertised to heat 1700 square feet, and after 2-3 hours of buring, I am lucky if the living room is warm. The house is a 55 years old Colonial, older windows, with a nice staircase in the living room that should draw some heat upstairs. The upstairs attic door is capped nicely to prevent any chimney effect to the outside. The gentleman at the store refused to sell me the blower unit the first 3 months of last year, because he stated that it "would be way to hot", and that I didn't need it. If I don't have the blower on at full speed at all times, there is NO point in even having the unit on!

I was wondering if you could offer me any advice or burning strategies to increase performance. Here are the circumstances:

-Always use dry, hard-wood (purchase 50%, cut and dry myself 50%)
-Burn with the throttle at about 50%-75% open. I am afraid that with the air vent fully open that I would overfire the box
-Blower Fan always on
-Stacking the wood all the way to the ceiling of the box
-Wood is always stored in my covered rack outdoors


Any help you can provide would be awesome. Thank you. Are the older windows making THAT much of a difference? They do have new storm windows as a barrier that are about 10 years old.

I asked the same question a few days ago because of dissappointment in my monster 5100i. I have NO block off plate but should have one installed by tomorrow and hope that this corrects my issue. I will keep you posted as to my results.

yes we are waiting

 

[JeremyG]

That is good advice about the blower speed....Would 1/2 speed be the ideal on a 3100?

The ceramic blanket is in place, and everything looks good inside.

My chimney is on the outside wall of the home.

 

[begreen]

That really helps. It sounds like you may be heating the exterior chimney as well as your home, especially if the liner is not insulated and/or it doesn't go all the way to the top of the chimney. What is happening is that a lot of the heat of the insert is heating outdoors as it heads up the chimney. Get an insulated block off plate installed and lets see how it improves the heat coming out of the stove. Try this, when the stove has been running for a few hours, go outside and feel the outside of the chimney behind the stove. Is it warm?

How much heat can be lost? For years my BIL heated their dining and kitchen area with a nice, wood-fired, built-in pizza oven. It wouldn't heat the house if it was below 25 outside, but it was good for a lot of winter days. On the outside the chimney was exposed in an area that was for a future greenhouse to be built onto the side of the house. Two years ago he finally installed the greenhouse. Now the chimney is interior to the attached greenhouse. If he fires up the pizza oven, even at night, the greenhouse temps go up into the 80's and that heat spills into the rest of the house. There's that much heat radiating from the masonry.

 

[Hogwildz]

No insulation in the walls says it all. You have only a barrier of I am guessing plaster keeping the heat from going out & the cold from coming in.
I bet that plaster is real cold too. Its not the stove. Start insulating those walls and you will see a big difference.

 

[TMonter]

There is no insulation in the walls of this older home, but the attic is pretty well insulated.

I didn't catch this before. This is your entire problem, no doubt about it.

Heat loss from an uninsulated wall versus a R11 or R13 insulated wall is huge. Likely 10X the heat loss of insulated walls.

Best money spent is going to be stripping off the plaster, insulating exterior walls and either redoing plaster or sheetrock. If you ever were planning on re-siding your house you could also do it when you remove the siding.