I hate my Napoleon 1450... suggestions for replacement

[scooby074]

Again, you have not told use the temps you are running the stove. If you aren't running this stove correctly, a new stove will not solve the problem. If you can't get your living room above 59 degrees in an average size home, there is an issue that is not being mentioned.

dug out the thermo. Stove was relit at when i got home. Stove has been running for about 1.5 hours.

Flue temps 325*

Stove top temp 530*

Stove Damper at approx 1/4

Stove blower at 80%

How drafty is your home? A 2.25 cu ft stove should be able to get that living room above 59 degrees.

House is VERY open concept and on a slab. The stove has to heat much more than just the living room, just a WAG but id say that minus the bedrooms the stove heats 1200 sf maybe. I think thats the issue as to why i cant get enough heat in the house. There arent that many drafts really. All double pane windows. ceiling / walls are insulated. House was wrapped in tyvec and resided just last year.

 

[scooby074]

If you're looking for a great stove with similar capacity to the F600 and top-loading, I HIGHLY recommend a Quadrafire Isle Royale! I've been burning 20+ plus years and have owned 12-15 different stoves and the IR is the best stove we've ever owned....

NP

Noticed you mention top loading a F600. Won't happen. It isn't a top loader. A long time ago it was. Not anymore.

oh? too bad then. i checked jotuls website and they still show it in the brochure. i still like the stove. just not quite as much without it

I tried to look at a quadrifire today, dealer pretty much gave up on the wood burners to concentrate on their pellet stoves. His woodburners are mainly from Pacific enerty, jotul and enerzone. Too bad, i heard good things on quad

 

[scooby074]

cold here today so i built a bigger fire to get temps.

stove pipe 350-400

stovetop 610

damper 1/2

room temp 20-21*c measured on an inside wall with infrared thermo

I'm thinking your home might be a little more drafty than you realize. Either way, if you want a warmer house, you will need a bigger stove. Due to the fact that a 2.25 cu ft firebox is heating your home so poorly, and you live in a very cold climate, I would suggest looking at the Blaze King King. Last thing you want to do is upgrade and still not meet your needs.

Found a couple dealers local for BK. Havent had a chance to look yet. Not sure if im that interested as i THINK i want cast iron this time. Might be open to being swayed however.

 

[scooby074]

My buddy at work has an older Jotul F600 with a top loader, however they don't make them any longer. Hope I didn't confuse you with the cost.. The Stove was $2300... The hearth and install were $2400 and the blower was $279...Total $4979... Figure I will have it for about 20 yrs. Only $250 a year for a great stove.

Its ok. Didnt confuse me more than i already am .:D

Got some prices today and let me tell you, if i could get a f600 for $2300 id have it already. Today was my first look in person. I didnt see a f600 (not stocked) but i did see a 400 and a ridgely. They are so much better constructed than what i currently run its not funny. Night and day difference. I see where the added money goes.

Prices i got today:

F600
Matt black paint $3200
Majorica brown $3810

f500
matte black paint $2725
Majorica brown $3394

Blower and heat shield prices are the same for both
Blower
$399
Rear heat shield (required for blower)
$159

For giggles i priced a PE summit at the same time, not sure i want a steel stove again, but my buddy runs a summit and is very happy

PE summit enamel with bonus fan $2935


All these prices are minus tax, so there will be an additional 15% on top. We really get the shaft here. Im going to call several other dealers, but i dont expect much difference. Any purchase (assuming finances are right) would hinge on sale of my current stove.

 

[scooby074]

First time I've heard of measuring the temperature of a room by using an IR thermometer on an inside wall. I think air temperature is what is normally measured, not the temperature of the structure itself.

Its the only semi-accurate method i have. I dont have a decent "air" thermo that i trust in that part of the house.. I do have a Davis weather station in a separate room that reads air temperature. Its beside a computer that runs 24/7 making lots of heat. Currently it reads 20*c. When i measure the wall temp by the station it reads 19.2*c, so my method while unconventional is somewhat accurate.

 

[scooby074]

im with BAR,

the stove running in the 5 to 6 hundred F range cruising sounds reasonable to me thouh i dont know that stove or what its supposed to cruise at are these temps holding for any amount of time? or is that just the "peak temp"?

while 1700 SQFT can be heated by a stove of that size not EVERY 1700 SQ FT space will be. what kind of heat loss are we looking at? how are we set for insulation? windows? etc.

again i cant speak to the broken bricks /baffles as its not my stove and im not sure what caused this. the painted surface thing though wasnt the stove's fault, it got wet and the paint isnt "weatherproof'

back to the sq ft rating, im not sure what this model's sq ft coverage rating is but it shold be noted that stove ratings geterally are set by "best case" scenario so if it said 1700 sq ft , actually it should read "up to" 1700 sq ft. things like insulation, floor plan and the like come into consideration .

without knowing the floor plan or the degree of insulation and just reading posts it does sound like you need more stove , but the stove may not be "faulty" just doesnt have the "horsepower" to cover your particular space

This is it in a nutshell. I sized my stove without taking enough leeway to allow for the open concept, long house that it is, nor the fact that its on a slab. Or the 4 picture windows. While technically my stove should heat 2000+ according to the literature it falls way short in practice. I just dont have enough HP out of it, as you say. Plus i dont like the fact that i have to reload through the nite and the stove doesnt hold heat and radiate, so when i come home at nite the house is cold. I know thats the nature of steel stoves (now) so i wont make that mistake again.

I agree on the paint issue, thats why next time im going enamel.

The baffles were a bad design. They are fiber baffles. The replacement models are over 2x as thick as the ones that came with it. Napoleon knows its an issue (hence the redesign) but they still wouldnt cover it under warranty.

 

[scooby074]

I have a 1450 in the basement of our 1800sqft bungalow (that's 1800 upstairs and 1800 downstairs).

We used the 1450 for a full year and a half and it heated our house fairly well.

Couple of observations:

1) I strongly doubt your wood is "dry". Being split for 4-6 months just isn't going to cut it yes, pun intended I ran this stove for about 2 months with poorly seasoned wood the spring we bought it and it really didn't perform very well. It definitely likes good dry wood in there.

2) You say you run the blower at 80% - that may be a bit too fast, I found running the blower more like 40% seemed to run the stove nicely. It may be cooling things a bit too much.

3) Temps could probably be a bit higher. I used a "calibrated" stove top thermo and IR gun and usually used to run the 1450 up to at least 650 at the front corner before starting to cut the air down to cruise.

4) Your last post mentioned making a "larger fire" - wondering - are you running the stove with a decent north south load each time? For that stove we would always run N/S, fill it to the gills and let it get to 650 - usually between 30-4- minutes, then turn down to 1/2 for about 15 minutes, then close it almost all the way to get beatifull secondaries. Are you getting the secondaries firing? It should look like the bowels of hell with them going and once you close it right down it will actually get a little hotter.

5) how are you circulating the air? Hopefully you're running a fan blowing cold airr into the room with the stove?

It's probably a combination of a bit of all of these plus maybe something like drafts or poor insulation (how much do you have in the walls / attic?)

Unfortunately im stuck with this wood. I wish i had a moisture probe but i dont. Maybe santa will get me one if i hint around :D

Ill try turning the blower down. Maybe it is cooling the stove too much, however the air coming off the back of the stove is only "warm" not "hot"

ill let the stove get a bit hotter before damping. I load N/S (fr (door end)/back?). I was running smaller fires on the warm days (we were almost 10*C) to save wood. I think im getting good secondary burn? looks like im getting "wisps" of flames when im damped down. And my glass is staying very clean.

Air circulation in the house is just convection now. Im going to install a ceiling fan in the room where the stove is, however you should note the house is very open concept, other then the bed, bath and utility rooms, its all open.

walls are 2x6. ceiling has maybe 6" fiberglass insulation there right now. It could use more.

 

[KB007]

If you're burning right, the secondaries should look like the mouth of a dragon when they get going, not just a few wisps of flame. It should be pouring out from the centre towards the sides. Do you have the baffles pushed all the way back? if the get to far towards the front, they can block a lot of air flow.

Rather than buying a new stove just yet, I'd be inclined to get some better insulation in the attic (go up to R50 at least). I had R30 blown in on top of R20 for less than a thousand bucks and it made a huge difference in the comfort feeling in our home. Plus, if you do eventually change the stove, it'll still help keep you warm.

Also, maybe try to buy some known seasoned wood (gas stations have bundles, or maybe somewhere else if possible) and try to burn a load of that stuff and see if it burns diferently. Let it get good and hot, turn it down and see if you get the bowels of hell secondaries.

I had a couple of pics of the secondaries going here: https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/49642/ this was with a small load and I didn't try to get the secondaries fired up too much.

 

[Wade A.]

I'm +1 on looking at the quality of the fuel. A bucked tree ain't a split log, and nothing appreciable starts to happen until it is split and stacked. By your own description, you're not burning dry wood. If you doubt that conclusion, I'd only suggest you get a moisture meter, re-split some of it and take a reading on the fresh interior surface. I'm going to bet lunch it will read somewhere north of 15%....my absolute cut-off for my Jotul is 10%, max, and even then I notice a big difference in my btu output from other, drier wood. After all... 350* max? Good Lord man, I can burn seasoned wood in an open steel barrel and reach those temps!

 

[PLAYS WITH FIRE]

Simple way to calibrate you thermometer is boil some water.....When the water comes to a rolling boil, dip and hold for a few seconds(don't touch metal pot). I found my rutland to about 90 degrees off and I use a UGL TEMPROOF magnetic that is like dead on!

I found I can run a little hotter than I was.....Sooooooo I do!

 

[Woody Stover]

Maybe you could get a stove load of your buddy's wood and see if it does better.
If you end up getting another stove, how about a PE Alderlea? Steel firebox (no air leaks) and cast shell, convective stove. Probably not too cheap. Doesn't look as cool as a JoeTool, but...

 

[Hanko]

600 on the stove top! nothing wrong with that stove. make sure the door and windows are closed

 

[ColdNH]

600 on the stove top! nothing wrong with that stove. make sure the door and windows are closed

What he said,

I had a 1450 in my old house, a basement install in a 1600 sq foot house, thing ran great, actually would sweat us out of the basement (80+ degrees was common) but the heat would rise and the rest of the house would be in the upper 60's with no other heat source going in the dead of winter.

This was with 2 year seasoned ash and 3 year seasoned oak.

 

[scooby074]

Trying a friends wood wont happen because hes 4 hrs away.. (wow , that sounded bad :D)

Honestly i feel that with a stove temp of 5-600 there is nothing really that wrong with the wood (as mentioned) . I just think that the stove isnt big enough to heat this long house. If it was a 2 story i dont think id be having any issues.

I wish i had a moisture meter so i could post what it said to prove or disprove that theory, but i dont have one. I will get one when princess auto has them again. They have one for under $20 that looks like it should do the job. Suggesting harbor freight etc. is a no go because they dont exist here.

Attic insulation is on the list for next year. Hopefully there will be some government rebates.

Honestly, now that christmas is over, i just dont think finances will allow a $3500 expenditure for a new stove. It looks like im stuck making the best out of this one to the next burning season unless something changes

 

[pen]

Whatever it adds to the home is more than would be there w/out it.

However, if you can't get the stove room above 15 °C in the weather you were describing with a 600 degree stove, and the square footage you were describing, I'd say you need a poo load of insulating / sealing / replacement windows maybe in your future.

Additionally, if 600 is truly the top end of what you can get out of that, I'm also going to go back and question the wood. I know if my stove only made it to 600 we'd have a house that's damn cold from where I heat. There is a huge difference between 600, then 650, then 700, and 750, etc. If that truly is your max temp, and you went through 6 cord of hardwood (softwood I'd understand) in that stove, I'm thinking it wasn't hot enough because the wood wasn't ready. You mention the wood being down an extended period but only cut and split 4-6 months. I say the problem "starts" there.

How colse to closed on the air settings are you able to leave the stove at for cruising?

pen

 

[scooby074]

I just found a cheap meter for $23.99 down from $79.99 at Canadian tire. Im going to post a new thread to discuss it and get opinions.... And to also let my fellow canucks know about the deal. I might get a meter yet :D

http://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/brow...ercraft+Digital+Moisture+Reader.jsp?locale=en

EDIT: heres the thread to discuss the meter

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/86412/

 

[scooby074]

Pen, i never have maxed out the stove. Once it gets beyond the safe part of my stove pipe thermo, i damp it down.

When cruising, i typically have it at 1/4-1/2.

As mentioned, im probably going to pick up that moisture meter above. Hopefully they have some in stock. Then we can put the moisture issue to bed once and for all.

 

[pen]

On a full load w/ dry wood and a good draft, leaving that thing 1/4 open should be more than sufficient to see stove top temps higher than what you are sharing. I put more credence into stove temps than flue temps on modern stoves so long as the air isn't kept wide open. Something is lacking here.

pen

 

[scooby074]

Ok, im not sure this is going to help at all, but i took some pictures of the stove just a few minutes ago. Glass is dirty and pics are a bit grainy (hey, its not like i planned on taking pics of my stove today :red: ), but i hope you can see the colour of the flames and how they are rolling under the baffles. and maybe determine something. That looks like good secondary burn, at least to my uneducated eyes.

Stove was loaded 2 hours or so, maybe 2.5

Damper is on ~1/4 +

pipe temp 300*

Stove top temp 485*

http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu221/scooby074/Wood Stove/IMG_3672.jpg

http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu221/scooby074/Wood Stove/IMG_3673.jpg

EDIT: does hearth not get along with Photobucket or something? Anyways, i got to go to bed, ill figure it out tomorrow

 

[HotCoals]

Here you go Scooby..took me a few to find them..lol.

I can get to the pic but can't post it here either.

 

[HotCoals]

TEST.

 

[scooby074]

Thanks Hot Coals.

I tried to do an inline pic using the

 

[BKInsert]

I think the problem is in the way you name the directories/files, hearth does not allow you to have ANY spaces between the names, even subdirectories, you would need to replace the spaces with "_" or something else. It took me a while to get this...

 

[scooby074]

I put an underscore in. Lets see if it works

 

[scooby074]

It works!!

Thanks BKInsert