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If you are burning a pre-EPA dragon are you still a "good citizen" w/respect to this forum ?

Post in 'The Hearth Room - Wood Stoves and Fireplaces' started by SmokeyCity, Jan 27, 2012.

  1. Locust Post

    Locust Post Minister of Fire

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    Is it abuse when you talk about that evil vertical splitting practice ?

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  2. fossil

    fossil Accidental Moderator Staff Member

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    Depends on just how you talk about it.
  3. Oldhippie

    Oldhippie Minister of Fire

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    I've got a old EPA compliant Resolute Acclaim that I bought used to replace the 1986 CDW Cat stove that was down there and deteriorated over the years. It's a pretty good stove, but it is hard to regulate the heat and I have a tall chimney and significant draft and it gets hotter than I'd like and it doesn't always burn through the night. I just couldn't afford paying big bucks for a new stove for the replacement. Too many college tuitions I'm still paying for, never mind the parental care costs to keep dear old Dad in assisted living. Sooner or later his Vets Aid benefits might kick in.. I should just not call the government and wait, that's what they said in their last letter.

    Then I got a old Smoke Dragon upstairs. I'd think about getting a nice new one with a glass door and all.. but yeah.. lot of money, and I would prolly not be able to sit in my living room when it was burning for the heat it would output.. plus I'd have to re-light it every morning because it would burn out.. you know.. keeping the air clean and all..

    My neighbors tell me they like the smell of wood smoke. Guy down the road calls his farm Woodsmoke Farm.

    I'm thinkin' of one for the living room and getting rid of the smoke dragon, but I'm worried I'll be worse off even if I do burn a couple less logs and not pollute so much.

    I'm worried about the environment and all, but sheesh.. make a product that's affordable, safe and flexible will ya? Oh, I forgot, the EPA don't care about those things.
  4. swestall

    swestall Minister of Fire

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    Those Englander stoves at Home Depot and Lowe's go on sale around this time of year and are great deals. Time to keep your eyes open.
  5. valley ranch

    valley ranch Feeling the Heat

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    A few of the Englander stoves have a bit of trouble working as long as they should.
  6. pen

    pen There are some who call me...mod. Staff Member

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    I own one and am curious what you know about problems with these units. Perhaps start a new thread on the topic sharing your experience.

    pen
  7. valley ranch

    valley ranch Feeling the Heat

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    Hi Pen, I am refering to a thread on this forum re: Problems with the motors on pellet burners. Is that a different Englander?

    Richard
  8. pen

    pen There are some who call me...mod. Staff Member

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    Just a different beast from the wood stoves they produce which is what I thought you were referring to.

    pen
  9. valley ranch

    valley ranch Feeling the Heat

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    OK, No offence meant.
  10. swestall

    swestall Minister of Fire

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    Me too, I am talking their wood stoves, they are GREAT...My brother has one and it does as well as my Mansfield for him; just ain't so pretty...
  11. lukem

    lukem Minister of Fire

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    I have both, yet I burn a 1984 model stove. Yes, I'm fortunate enough to have learned from everyone here at hearth.com about the benefits of a modern stove, and have the financial resources to buy a new stove, but I haven't/didn't/won't until I have to.

    It's all about ROI...and for me there isn't any. I process my own fuel and love doing it so there's no financial or intangible incentive associated with burning less wood. My stove works great...12 hour burns are a walk in the park even with marginal wood. It cranks heat, so a new one won't make my house warmer.

    On the downside, it does make smoke and creosote even though my fuel is very dry.

    As far as creosote, I clean my chimney about three times a season. It takes 20 minutes. So, you can argue that a new stove would take 40 minutes less work a season on cleaning. I would have to value my time very highly for that to make financial sense. You could argue that it may be safer too, but probably only marginally since I clean frequently and don't get much out of the flue when I do.

    As far as smoke, which I don't make much of, it doesn't impact my neighbors. It does the environment. I figure i can have a better impact on the environment by spending money on other efficiency improvement efforts that need done anyway (sealing leaks, adding insulation, better appliances, etc) that I use year round than a new stove that I only use less than a thied of the year.

    So does that make me a "bad" citizen? I don't know, but I'm sure I don't care.
  12. roknwoe

    roknwoe New Member

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    Smokey City:

    You are not getting a ton of responses with your topic. Very touchy topic!

    I do not own an OWB, but am interested in them.

    ---We have an EPA wood stove, and a 32 year old non EPA WoodChuck wood furnace. We burn dry seasoned wood, and have limited smoke from the WoodChuck and no smoke from the
    EPA wood stove).

    I understand the non EPA OWB's cost perhaps 1/2 as much as an EPA OWB. For many it is likely a matter of affordability.

    But I would not like to live near them. Luckily, the prevailing winds save us from the smoke of a neighbor with a smaller Heatmor OWB about 300 yards down the road.

    On some weekends, I see a billowing cloud of blue/white smoke about 15 feet above the ground, blowing straight west toward a small sub-division, where they get a hell of a dose.

    My conscience would not let me do this to my neighbors. To me, it would be disrespectful and a violation of conscience to send big time harmful carcinogens to others, just as smoking cigarettes is a harmful health danger (2nd hand smoke) for others inside homes and work environments. It would like be polluting the ground water and not caring about ones neighbors who have to drink it from their wells.

    We all pollute in some ways: lawn fertilizers, washing machine detergents; driving cars. Those who drive older cars (60's and 70's vintage) with no Catalytic Converters are polluting big time. Just follow them some time in your car, and you will smell what I mean.

    If I had an OWB sending huge amounts of smoke next door to my sons house with his young children, it would kill me knowing what I was doing to them. I would get rid of the OWB.

    If people don't care about others or themselves, and a serious health hazard is present, then the government should step in and protect the rights of others: safe air to breath and safe water to drink for all. It may not be 100% pure, but it should be safe.

    It may come to this some day in our neighborhoods, when smokey devices are banned, as some states are now moving toward a ban of them.

    My plan is to replace the old WoodChuck with an EPA wood furnace. The EPA wood boiler seems expensive to buy, more expensive to run, and is understood to eat up more wood than the EPA wood furnace.

    I will leave this to history to make a judgement call as to whether all non EPA OWB people are bad citizens.
  13. pen

    pen There are some who call me...mod. Staff Member

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    Really, considering the title of this topic, I think the issue becomes what being a "good citizen" means. The definition will change depending on how global you want to be defined.

    Being a good citizen will change drastically depending on population density / local climate / etc when talking about the small scale or locale. In a worldly sense, a definition of a "good citizen" may be very different from what we would expect.

    pen
  14. tfdchief

    tfdchief Minister of Fire

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    That's what I like about this place!
  15. Oldhippie

    Oldhippie Minister of Fire

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    I think not!
  16. tfdchief

    tfdchief Minister of Fire

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    +1
  17. tfdchief

    tfdchief Minister of Fire

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    I am a "good citizen" and I burn both.
  18. theonlyzarathu

    theonlyzarathu Member

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    My old Riteway model 37 built in 1978, had a secondary burn chamber and was a side burner so that all the heat had to go out right next to the coals. It couldn't be run in a smoldering condition. It either ran all the way open or all the way closed---with dang little inbetween. When it got to hot on the thermostatically controlled draft, the draft simply closed off 100% and the thing went back to coals until it came open again.
  19. SmokeyCity

    SmokeyCity Feeling the Heat

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    There are no "bad citizen" BK owners!

    HOOOAH for BK


  20. sebring

    sebring Member

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    We all like each other here. What else would we be doing between cutting/splitting/stacking/feeding the fire, if we weren't on this forum.
  21. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    Probably visiting unmentionable sites and getting our systems infected.
  22. corey21

    corey21 Minister of Fire

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    I try my best to be a good citizen.
  23. valley ranch

    valley ranch Feeling the Heat

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    Exactly! But frankly: my Centennial stove burns clean and gives much heat with little wood.

    I like this forum.
  24. StihlHead

    StihlHead Guest

    Well, you can go off the deep end with the being a good samaritan and all. There are always the jerks that burn tires and green wood, and on the flip side there are the green/eco/health types that push for new laws regarding all kinds of regulations on air quality and energy. I mean, look at all the EPA changes in chainsaws lately. If you read the EPA's position on this, you would think that a puny 30cc chainsaw gives off more pollution than 20 cars commuting 100 miles a day. Seriously... when I looked into why the EPA forced handheld tool manufactures to run cleaner engines, I found that John Deere was the leading lobby to get the laws changed for small engines. Long story short: John Deere owned Homelite and their new clean burning 2-stroke engine technology that they had. So they pressured congress to pass tough 2010 small engine EPA smog laws. Then they came under a financial crunch and sold off Homelite. However, by that time the EPA laws were going into effect. John Deere wound up bailing out of hand-held tools altogether, and many JD dealers here sell Stihl and Honda hand held and small power tools now. In the end I have to wonder what the fuss was all about, and who stands to gain from cleaner burning hand held equipment, when compared to all the other sources of pollution out there. Am I going to frown upon guys that use older technology chainsaws that according to the EPA are "gross polluters?" No, as I have some older but great running chainsaws myself. I am not about to sell them becasue they are older, less efficient, and create slightly more smog. One good thong about the EPA laws though; it keeps all the crappy Chinese junker chainsaws and small engine tools from being sold in the US now. Legally anyway, as anyone can import the knock offs directly themselves via those Craigslist ads.

    It is similar to wood burning appliances. In the US west the response to wood burning appliances is rather varied by state and region. In places like the SF Bay Area counties, no new homes can be built with any type of wood burning appliance. Period. You have to be grandfathered with a house that had a fireplace or stove before the law went into effect to burn wood there. Oregon has taken a more reasonable stand on wood burning stoves in my view. They have passed a law that requires any home sold that has a non-EPA or non-DEQ approved wood burning appliances to have the appliance scrapped by the seller or buyer (decided in escrow). The DEQ list is an addendum to cleaner burning older non-EPA stoves. As long as you do not sell your home, you can keep your existing wood stoves and OWBs. Up in WA state they have gone overboard and all OWBs are outlawed there now. WA state has the strictest requirements to wood burning appliances, and they exceed the EPA requirements by a wide margin. They also have strict wood burning building codes in place that vary by county. Again, I am not going to scream about the people near me that have brick fireplaces that are un-regulated by any of this EPA stuff that burn inefficnently and smoke as much as any wood stove. Nor am I going to scream at the guys that have older wood stoves like I have. I did compalin to the neighbor with the tree farm that burns wet green trees for weeks on end. Legally as a nursery in Oregon he can get away with doing that. As a homeowner I could not. Now, the state goes through all this troube to reduce smoke from older wood burning appliances, and then they let any nursery burn all the green wet wood that they want and smoke out an entire area? No sense in that. Nor does it make sense to regulate rural areas the same as in cities. Out here where I live the fireplace/stove smoke has almost no effect on air quality. But over in the congested urban valley, it is a real problem. They have all the votes though.

    Note also that there are a lot of pre-EPA stoves out there that burn fairly cleanly. The Oregon DEQ list is one that has many of the better older non-EPA models out there. EPA only lists stoves that were tested and passed, and were/are sold at the time the laws went into effect. The laws being phased in now are going to repalce the smoke dragons with newer more efficient and less smokey ones. The smoke dragons will fall aprt over time, as my older Earth Stove is now. Their era is coming to an end, regardless. They are going the way of the dinasaurs, along with the older chainsaws and 60's muscle cars.
  25. kettensäge

    kettensäge Feeling the Heat

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    I can afford any stove sold today and any of the modifications needed to my home and chimney to install it.
    Will I do it? no.
    Calling it unethical to replace your woodburner because you can afford it and don't? what is that?


    My old Pre EPA Hutch insert does fine. Seasoned wood and proper burning techniques means no smoke.
    I have never cleaned my chimney and never needed to. Testament to how cleanly my pre EPA setup works with the right fuel and operating techniques.

    I think the OP needs an education on what "smoke dragon" means. (Hint: it's a nickname).


    Hope this forum isn't heading for the toilet like so many others.

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