Installation Questions

[mtnhiker70]

Hi. I bought a regency ci2600. I am getting quotes to have it installed. I've had 3 companies come out and give us quotes. They range between $2000 and $2500. I feel like we are getting the "special price" because we have a big house in a nice area.

The last installer has said that our fireplace isn't 'to code'. Attached is his quote. He's talking about chipping out our clay chimney liner because it has mortar joints that are over-filled and leaked into the flue. Isn't that ridiculous?? I can open the flue and stick my head under it and see straight up to the sky. I only need a 5.5" liner for the ci2600, and he's saying that it won't fit in an 8x8 flue. I dont' see how that could be true.

I also don't know why he's talking about an insulated liner. I don't see any mention of that being required by regency. Am I correct??

He's also saying that roxul insulation cannot be used as it's not UL rated. What is supposed to be used? The manual says the ci2600 needs to be sealed at the front of the insert or the damper. How is it sealed?
Thanks in advance!

 

[webby3650]

The second quote is correct. You should insulate the liner for performance as well as safety. An insulated 6" liner won't fit down an 8x8 flue. I'd be really surprised if that's actually the size you have though, a fireplace should be 8x12 minimum, typically 12x12. Roxul is fine to use around the unit, but he's correct, it is not listed for this application.

Why didn't you have the store that sold it to you do the install? We typically do insulated liners for about $1,000 of you bought a stove from us. The prices you are seeing are not out of line for a liner and installation from a second party.

 

[mtnhiker70]

The second quote is correct. You should insulate the liner for performance as well as safety. An insulated 6" liner won't fit down an 8x8 flue. I'd be really surprised if that's actually the size you have though, a fireplace should be 8x12 minimum, typically 12x12. Roxul is fine to use around the unit, but he's correct, it is not listed for this application.

Why didn't you have the store that sold it to you do the install? We typically do insulated liners for about $1,000 of you bought a stove from us. The prices you are seeing are not out of line for a liner and installation from a second party.

We bought a floor model, in a neighboring state. I could call their installer. All the shops use a 2nd party.

 

[kennyp2339]

Ask for a sheet metal block off plate to be installed @ the smoke shelf, typically many people who install inserts will also pack in roxal above this metal plate, this keep the heat from rising up the chimney and being absorb into the masonry, you will have hotter / longer burn times even with just a metal plate.
As far as an insulated liner, imo an insulated liner is always the best, but there are 2 times I can think of that would require one. 1st is masonry chimney that does not have the proper clearance to combustibles, and the 2nd is outside of the building envelope chimney.
If you have an interior chimney that has the proper thickness of masonry and clearance to the actual building you can get away with a normal stainless steel liner (I would still prefer an insulated one) All other types require an insulated one to a: keep the flue gases warmer which reduces the smoke from condensing and creating creosote, and b: in the event there's a chimney fire the insulated liner will hold the heat (temps +1500 deg f) and you wont have extension into the structure, the liner might be shot after that but you will still have a house to sleep in.

 

[webby3650]

We bought a floor model, in a neighboring state. I could call their installer. All the shops use a 2nd party.

That's a bummer

 

[bholler]

I only need a 5.5" liner for the ci2600, and he's saying that it won't fit in an 8x8 flue. I dont' see how that could be true.

It will not fit when it is insulated as it should be

I also don't know why he's talking about an insulated liner. I don't see any mention of that being required by regency. Am I correct??

No but it is probably required by code unless you have the required clearance to combustibles from the outside of the chimney to any combustible materials. And regardless you want it insulated for performance reasons

He's also saying that roxul insulation cannot be used as it's not UL rated. What is supposed to be used? The manual says the ci2600 needs to be sealed at the front of the insert or the damper. How is it sealed?

He is right it is not listed and because of that we dont use it we use ceramic wool insulation and the damper area should be sealed with a plate and insulation on top of that.

 

[bholler]

Why didn't you have the store that sold it to you do the install? We typically do insulated liners for about $1,000 of you bought a stove from us. The prices you are seeing are not out of line for a liner and installation from a second party.

is that with breakout too?

 

[Squisher]

If you got three quotes for between 2000-2500 that's pretty consistent. But if the last guy who's quote you posted is th only one that mentioned insulation and his price is $2100?, even though he seems to be no mathematician I'd go with him. Ask him how much more for a insulated block off plate.

 

[webby3650]

is that with breakout too?

No, we don't ever break out tiles on an insert. And very rarely ever on any flue. Just honestly don't run into it very often around here.

 

[bholler]

No, we don't ever break out tiles on an insert.

we don't in inserts often either but if it is 8x8 like this one (which are rare) or if it is 8x12 and in bad shape we will break them out. otherwise we ovalize for 8x12s and 12x12s are no problem obviously. Although we have removed 12x12s when they are cracked and so dirty it would be cheaper for us to just pull them out rather than clean them.

 

[mtnhiker70]

It will not fit when it is insulated as it should be


No but it is probably required by code unless you have the required clearance to combustibles from the outside of the chimney to any combustible materials. And regardless you want it insulated for performance reasons


He is right it is not listed and because of that we dont use it we use ceramic wool insulation and the damper area should be sealed with a plate and insulation on top of that.

Thank you! I think i understand now - the damper is bigger than the flue liner, so it gets blocked.

 

[mtnhiker70]

we don't in inserts often either but if it is 8x8 like this one (which are rare) or if it is 8x12 and in bad shape we will break them out. otherwise we ovalize for 8x12s and 12x12s are no problem obviously. Although we have removed 12x12s when they are cracked and so dirty it would be cheaper for us to just pull them out rather than clean them.

I think ours really is 8x8. They squeezed 2 flues in, and under-sized them. The house is not old and the chimney is NOT dirty. I can see the terracotta color even. It's not cracked, but does have some sloppily done mortar inside it. I don't see why the mortar can't be chipped away, and the 5.5" liner dropped down. so I really don't want someone removing the 8x8 terracotta. They may damage the 2nd clay flue, which is next to it, which i may want to use for a gas insert at some point.

 

[bholler]

I think ours really is 8x8. They squeezed 2 flues in, and under-sized them. The house is not old and the chimney is NOT dirty. I can see the terracotta color even. It's not cracked, but does have some sloppily done mortar inside it. I don't see why the mortar can't be chipped away, and the 5.5" liner dropped down. so I really don't want someone removing the 8x8 terracotta. They may damage the 2nd clay flue, which is next to it, which i may want to use for a gas insert at some point.

But it will not fit with insulation. Is your chimney internal to the house or external?

 

[bholler]

which i may want to use for a gas insert at some point.

You would not need it for a gas insert either it would have its own liner as well. And if you are talking about gas logs it would need to be sized correctly to be able to use it for gas logs as well so it would not work for them either.

 

[venator260]

Not being a chimney pro as several of the responders here are, I'd add that an installer for a vented gas appliance would probably want to install a liner as well. It was recommended in my old house for our gas water heater.

 

[mtnhiker70]

If you got three quotes for between 2000-2500 that's pretty consistent. But if the last guy who's quote you posted is th only one that mentioned insulation and his price is $2100?, even though he seems to be no mathematician I'd go with him. Ask him how much more for a insulated block off plate.

I don't think that I want the terracotta liner destroyed. It might destroy my 2nd flue. And he promised nothing, including putting a disclaimer that the might destroy the 2nd flue, and that whole thing isn't 'to code'. In my mind, it's his job to bring it up to code. I think he could squeeze in a 5.5", but nobody wants to. And I don't think the flue needs to be insulated. Regency says it needs a ULC- S635, which isn't insulated. I think $2k is really high, but i think everyone who looks at it, doesn't like the idea of dealing with an 8x8 flue.

But it will not fit with insulation. Is your chimney internal to the house or external?

Regency manual doesn't mention any need for the liner to be insulated. The chimney is about 18' tall from the hearth up, and on an exterior wall that faces south.

 

[bholler]

In my mind, it's his job to bring it up to code.

And that is exactly what he proposing.

And I don't think the flue needs to be insulated.

What are you basing that opinion on? Can you confirm that you have the required clearance to combustibles? For an internal chimney it would be 2" that means that from the outside of the masonry structure of the chimney you cannot have any combustible material. For an external one it is 1"

I think he could squeeze in a 5.5", but nobody wants to

yes you probably could if it was a bare liner but it should be insulated. We will not install any liner for a solid fuel burning appliance without insulation and many other sweeps are the same. It is safer and performs better. And in most cases it is required by code.

ULC- S635

that is for canada here you need ul-1777

Regency manual doesn't mention any need for the liner to be insulated.

No but code does and so do most liner manufacturers.

I think $2k is really high,

That is about what it would be from us as well.

 

[Marshy]

The 8x8 clay liner is an outside to outside dimension. The interior size of the 8x8 clay liner is closer to 7x7 inches. My understanding was an insulated 6" stainless liner will take an 8" round space and since you have only enough room to fit 7" round it will not fit.

I have seen some DIY videos of people installing 6" insulated stainless liners in chimneys. I would do it myself if I didn't like the price. You might have better luck calling the manufacture of the stainless liners and asking how much room is needed to install the 6" insulated stainless liner. Maybe they will tell you they fit fine inside of the 8x8 clay lined chimney.

If you have mortar in the flow path inside the flue then it might catch the insulation during installation. You might need to break it off. I assuming there is a risk of damaging the joint so I would leave it unless you are going to line the chimney.

 

[bholler]

Maybe they will tell you they fit fine inside of the 8x8 clay lined chimney.

it will not and neither will an insulated 5.5". In fact a bare 6" liner often will not fit down an 8x8 liner if there is mortar sticking out of if the tiles are offset at all. A 6" liner is actually about 6.25" then add the 1/2" of insulation you are at 7.25" if you get it wrapped perfectly tight. but in reality you are looking at 7.5" and like you said 8x8 is the outside dimension so no way it will fit. And taking the 1/2" off to drop to 5.5" wont be enough

 

[Marshy]

it will not and neither will an insulated 5.5". In fact a bare 6" liner often will not fit down an 8x8 liner if there is mortar sticking out of if the tiles are offset at all. A 6" liner is actually about 6.25" then add the 1/2" of insulation you are at 7.25" if you get it wrapped perfectly tight. but in reality you are looking at 7.5" and like you said 8x8 is the outside dimension so no way it will fit. And taking the 1/2" off to drop to 5.5" wont be enough

Have you done an insulated 8" liner at all? How much room is needed there?

Any structural concerns with a masonry chimney that has had the clay liner removed?

 

[Squisher]

From reading the quote my thought was that a uninsulated liner wasn't going to fit down anyways without knocking out some big chunks of mortar along the way, which essentially compromises the integrity of the existing flue and therefore would require the insulated liner regardless. So breakout and insulated liner. Think about the liability you are wanting this guy to assume to get you set up safely and properly and to code for how much money is he going to actually make and to have to physically do it? Insurance, tooling, mobility. It ain't hard to do the math.

His recommendation of a insulated liner is the proper way. His not wanting to be on the hook for having no real idea of the integrity and construction of your chimney other than the smoke chamber deficencies that he also noted in the quote, is completely understandable to me. What did the other quotes look/read like?

 

[bholler]

Have you done an insulated 8" liner at all? How much room is needed there?

Yes I install about 100 liners a year I have done a 24" lol so yes plenty of 8" liners. But you basically add 1.5" to the liner size to get the insulated diameter. Some of the preinsulated stuff is a little smaller especially duraliner but that is rigid so your chimney needs to be really straight.