Is heat loss same for all methods of heat distribution?

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goosegunner

Minister of Fire
Oct 15, 2009
1,469
WI
When comparing Radiant panels or cast iron radiators to Forced air heat do your heat loss numbers stay the same?

I guess I am curious because of all the positive feedback I see here about Panel radiators and cast iron radiators.

Does wood use decline if using radiators vs Forced air heat exchanger?


gg
 
Thats a question I have been wandering myself.

I recently helped a person install an effecta 35 boiler in a house on the East side of Northern Michigan (Alpena). He is using a 100,000 BTU heat exchanger in the furnace plenum and has 1,000 gallons of refurbished propane tank storage. Early on he thought the 35 kw effecta lambda boiler was too small but I made a visit to him over the holidays and he said everything is working great. The day I was there the outside temps. were in the teens and he was making one burn per day.

The house is 2,6000 sq. ft and was built 10 years ago. One half of the house is an A frame construction with 24' ceilings and that end of the house is pretty much 100% glass (thus quite a bit of heatloss).

The boiler and sprayfoam insulated tanks are in his 30' x 40' pole barn and his boiler water is going underground for approx. 65' through Z Flex silver wrapped 1" PAP pipe. The system has been designed so that the circ. pump only moves water from the top of tank to the house when the furnace fan comes on (this is done using an Azel temp. setpoint controller and switching relay).
 

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When comparing Radiant panels or cast iron radiators to Forced air heat do your heat loss numbers stay the same? I guess I am curious because of all the positive feedback I see here about Panel radiators and cast iron radiators. Does wood use decline if using radiators vs Forced air heat exchanger?

I'm not sure you are asking the right question, but let me take a guess at what you want to find out. For space heating, I think the question might be what type of heat delivery system provides the most human comfort from the least amount of energy delivered to the heat emitters (forced air fan coil, radiant panel, fin-tube, in-floor radiant, etc.)?

From an energy perspective, 1 btu = 1 btu no matter what delivery system is used. From a comfort perspective most people would agree that when heat is needed for human comfort, forced air needs to be quite warm to produce a feeling of warmth because moving air also accelerates evaporation of moisture from the skin, and evaporation has a cooling effect. The slower the moving air, the less evaporative cooling effect. I'm going to take a guess that from a thermometer in the heated room perspective, moving air that heats the space to 72F will take the same amount of btu's that any other heat emitter system will use to heat the thermometer to 72F (unless the thermometer is in the direct radiance of a radiant heat source greater than 72F).

Evaporative cooling aside, I think also most people would agree that a lower temperature radiant source feels warmer than a higher temperature air source, and therefore the room may be heated to a thermometer temperature of less than 72F, resulting in less btu input into the room. If the radiant heat source is greater than 72F, then I think the reason is that radiant energy greater than 72F is striking the skin and heating the skin (and other surfaces) to more than 72F, therefore the skin is warmer than 72F, comfort is established, and the warmed surfaces by conductive and convective forces then may heat the room to 72F shown by the thermometer, or because the skin is warmer than 72F, the room temperature comfortably may be established at something lower than 72F, resulting in a need for less btu input into the room.

If less btu input into the room is needed, then heat energy from wood or any other source may decline.

I'm also going to guess that the slower the moving air from a forced air heat source, the lower the temperature of the air needs to be to achieve a comfort level. In other words, a large volume of low velocity warm moving air probably can be at a lower temperature than smaller volumes of higher velocity and higher temperature moving air. In my experience higher velocity and higher temperature moving air would be typical for a house.

Another factor is the needed btuh rating of the heat source. An intermittent source, such as a typical forced air furnace or unit, needs to have a higher btuh rating than a more constant source, such as low temperature radiant emitters. The reason is simple. If building heat loss is 30,000 btuh, that applies regardless of the heat source, But if the heat source is forced air that is "on" only 1/3 the time, then the forced air source must have an output of 90,000 btuh. But a low temperature emitter that is constant would only need to have an output of 30,000 btuh.

This is where wood gasification boiler systems with storage excel. These systems can use the high and efficient energy output of burning wood to the maximum and then deliver the btu's constantly from storage.
 
My question is based on numerous post on the board where people state that their calculated heat loss is one number but because they are using radiator panels they are finding it to be much less.

I am curious to know if the fan in forced air system causes more air infiltration in the home from the creation of pressure differences.

I don't think that Forced air systems are sized the way you describe Jebatty. My installer told me that they basically shoot for btu output that would have the furnace run continuously at design temps.

gg
 
The only way I can see it would be less is

1- have radiant heat were you don't have to have it as warm to be comfy and no air blowing around to make it feel cooler.

2 - transmission losses ( heat duct losses to crawl space etc. ) Can allso have losses with radiant so just depends.

3 - If you have high cielings with hot air it's going to rise to the cieling so it would take more heat to be warm lower and
your losses to the attick may be higher do to warmer temps on cieling.
 
I am trying to decide if it would be worth the hassle, expense to add low temp emitters to my home. It is easy to get sucked into doing projects by reading all the glowing reports but I don't want to add any if it doesn't change much for overall satisfaction. I would have a fair amount of obstacles to deal with.

1. Finished lower level with drywall ceilings

2. Open floor plan with big windows= not much wall space

3. Current system using pump from storage on demand only, I believe radiant would be continuous so storage would mix.

4. Need enough radiant to cover all rooms or some would be cold if forced air doesn't kick in.


gg
 
Goose: A heatloss calc is based on the structure & site conditions where it is located. It does not change no matter what heat source/system one is using to heat the structure.

I think what you are trying to get at is the question of is it more eff to heat water & distribute it or to heat air & distribute it. Right?

If that is the question you were wondering then the answer is water is more eff. It stores heat readily, holds it & is easily transmitted to the system with less loss than air. All our forced air systems here in North America have a foundation in history & culture rather than eff. We do it because we have always done it that way, if that makes any sense.

Want proof look to Germany/Austria/Sweden/Norway & other western EU nations that have rules regarding the eff of building heating systems as well as far higher fuel costs. Over there the reverse is true, one has to look long & hard to find a structure that uses hot air only as it's heat source.

Hope I guessed right & I hope this helps.
 
Frozen Canuck said:
Goose: A heatloss calc is based on the structure & site conditions where it is located. It does not change no matter what heat source/system one is using to heat the structure.

I think what you are trying to get at is the question of is it more eff to heat water & distribute it or to heat air & distribute it. Right?

If that is the question you were wondering then the answer is water is more eff. It stores heat readily, holds it & is easily transmitted to the system with less loss than air. All our forced air systems here in North America have a foundation in history & culture rather than eff. We do it because we have always done it that way, if that makes any sense.

Want proof look to Germany/Austria/Sweden/Norway & other western EU nations that have rules regarding the eff of building heating systems as well as far higher fuel costs. Over there the reverse is true, one has to look long & hard to find a structure that uses hot air only as it's heat source.

Hope I guessed right & I hope this helps.

Yeah that is what I was getting at. Now that I have this boiler and storage running what am I leaving on the table performance wise by using forced air coil?

If I take my tank down to 140 degrees I use less wood to bring it back to temp than if I run it down to 100 degrees with radiators. I just do it more frequently with shorter fires. So what and where would the savings come in. By keeping the house at an overall lower temperature do to more comfortable heat?

Or is there really no savings gained by the efficiency of radiant panels?

gg
 
goosegunner said:
Frozen Canuck said:
Goose: A heatloss calc is based on the structure & site conditions where it is located. It does not change no matter what heat source/system one is using to heat the structure.

I think what you are trying to get at is the question of is it more eff to heat water & distribute it or to heat air & distribute it. Right?

If that is the question you were wondering then the answer is water is more eff. It stores heat readily, holds it & is easily transmitted to the system with less loss than air. All our forced air systems here in North America have a foundation in history & culture rather than eff. We do it because we have always done it that way, if that makes any sense.

Want proof look to Germany/Austria/Sweden/Norway & other western EU nations that have rules regarding the eff of building heating systems as well as far higher fuel costs. Over there the reverse is true, one has to look long & hard to find a structure that uses hot air only as it's heat source.

Hope I guessed right & I hope this helps.

Yeah that is what I was getting at. Now that I have this boiler and storage running what am I leaving on the table performance wise by using forced air coil?

If I take my tank down to 140 degrees I use less wood to bring it back to temp than if I run it down to 100 degrees with radiators. I just do it more frequently with shorter fires. So what and where would the savings come in. By keeping the house at an overall lower temperature do to more comfortable heat?

Or is there really no savings gained by the efficiency of radiant panels?
gg/(quote)



If you can run it down to 140 I don't think it would be worth changing.
If your making dhw you won't be able to go that low any how. Probably 125 at the very minimum
 
The main advantage efficiency wise to rad panels is that you can keep rooms not in use at a cooler temp. Each panel can be it's own zone. Another advantage is you don't have the noise from a fan. No turning the T.V. up when the blower kicks in.
That also means no dust blowing around. Good for people with allergies.
 
I don’t think that Forced air systems are sized the way you describe Jebatty. My installer told me that they basically shoot for btu output that would have the furnace run continuously at design temps.

I haven't been in such a home yet. It may make sense with new construction and ultra-high efficiency furnaces. I'm not sure that continuous air movement will have desirable comfort, but without experiencing it, I need to wait and see.

My cousins in Germany have radiant panel heat in their home. The panels blend in well with the walls, hardly notice them. From websites I see that panels can be wide and narrow, tall and thin, or anything between. Based on btuh ratings when I've toyed with the idea of installing in my home, it would not be hard to come up with usable wall space for the panels, include the open 18" space between the floor and the bottom of our windows.

You've brought up an interesting question. Lots of ideas are showing up.
 
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