Isle Royale

[Jags]

Hey Carp, when firing up a cold IR, try this: Use an armload (do not "fill" the fire box) of smaller splits, no bigger than your wrist (or forearm if you might be one of those skinny type people ;-) ). Let that go at full open air (and start up air in the beginning). I have my stove from cold to 500 deg in about 35 min. using this method. And for anyone that might be thinking "boy I wouldn't want to heat my cast iron stove up that fast" , tell it to the exhaust manifold of your vehicle.

And for the general reading populace: Please, please, please, don't ever use the ash door of an IR to "start your fire". Bad things can (and probably will) happen. These things, if properly installed, will pull more than enough air with its INTENDED air supplies to start darn near any wood in a reasonable amount of time.

Just passing a little Isle Royal experience along. No hijack intended.

 

[RonB]

Hi Smokey, Sounds like a good idea to check with the other dealers as you are. Makes you wonder about the dealer with 12 bad stoves just this year. Did he do all the installs on those stoves? Did he properly give help/advice for correct operation of the stove? Is he ticked at the Quad rep? Is their a better profit margin on the other stoves? Is he in a sales contest with any of the other brands? There is more to the story than what he has told you so far. From your post I sense you went into his store with the IR as your desire and he did everything possible to scare you into selecting something else i.e.; they all break, no dealer support, 6 mo. to replace, etc, etc,. You don't have time to play games with this guy. If you do, just ask him for the names of 6 of the 12 customers with the bad stoves because you want to call them yourself to determine what went wrong. I'd steer clear of this dealer.

 

[elkimmeg]

Ron and carp good info and post. I have the same feeling the whole story is not being told. Carp made a valid observation with ash door usege. All it takes in forgetting you left it open to blast furnace your stove and ruin it cracking cast parts Sounds real plausiable

 

[begreen]

Agreed. Same can be said for many cast iron stoves. Leave the ash pan door open and it's a blast furnace. Hard for a manufacturer to protect against this.

I really like that Quad has provided a start up air control on this stove. Wish one was on Jotuls. But with this control comes user responsibility. If the owner spaces out that the startup air is left open, the risk of overheating components is a possibility. Makes one wonder if the dealer in question has been misinstructing new owners on how to operate the stove.

 

[Bill]

Elk: I have a 6" chimney, I believe I need 8" for that stove.

Everyone brings up great points. The first thing I wondered about was abuse, and that ash door. I guess the harder part of buying a stove is the twist from the dealers. That's all my wife had to hear is they crack and now if I buy one I get the I told you so. She thinks my cheap Ashley works just fine and thinks I am a Pyro for wanting a good stove. So there is some emotion involved in this decision.

I guess nothing would surprise me about what the average person would do (abuse) to a stove. I think I am going to discount what he told me. Some time in the near future I am going to start a thread about some of the things different dealers told me. They could get away with some of this stuff with maybe the average person, but I read every thread that pertains to wood stoves, twice. So my questions at the stores are ones that give the sales person the deer in the headlight look.

I am grateful for all the help I received on this forum and thank everyone for there time and experience, I honestly have learned a lot.

I narrowed my choice down to two stoves, and I still think the IR is a quality stove, and may bight the bullet real soon. I am not in to much of a hurry with the warmer (hopeful) weather on it's way.

 

[elkimmeg]

The Encore has a 6" flue collar option. Which is installed on my stove. It is tested and certified to opperate with the 6" flue. The only disclaimer is the open fire screen option is not certified for 6"
venting I might add the Defiant also can be proprely opperated using a 6" flue collar

Where are you dealers to inform you of all the options or possibilities? Well I know one dealerto scratch off your list unless, he can back up his statements. That is unless he offers an unbeliable price for a current inventory stove he wants to move

 

[Bill]

I am wondering if it wasn't just porcelain cracking?

 

[jtp10181]

I bet you guys thought I was just blowing smoke when I never replied regarding my contact at Quad. Well he was out of the his office for a while so he just got back to me today. Turns out I was wrong all along about the manifold tubes. The air for the manifold tubes does come from outside the stove on all quad units. Most of them including the Isle Royal there is a channel along the back and the intake is down below someplace and if you have an OAK it pulls from that. The big question was how the heck the air gets into the rotating plate on the IR. If you look close you can see the pivot point is a big tube, well its hollow and the air travels in there. The guy said it is controlled by your draw, the more draw the fireplace has the more air will get pulled out of those tubes. Was that all the questions or was there something else?

 

[carpniels]

Hi jtp,

That is exactly how I understood the stove works and where the secondary burn air comes from.

Thanks for checking it out.

CarpNiels

 

[Uptownlarry]

We have used an Isle Royale for three heating seasons now, putting about 5-8 cords of dry lodgepole and douglas fir through it each winter. We have been very satisfied with the heat we get out of it (big old Victorian house in Butte, Montana). As others have said, the glass cleaning has been good, and it heats up quickly and stays hot for a long time, with the right wood loading procedures. We got it because of its large size and the top loading feature (which we use 95% of the time)!

However, that top loading and the swinging smoke reburner has been a huge headache! I must ask others, how many firebricks in the "flapper" have you gone through? We've had 4 or 5, and the last one broke to pieces months ago. At $40 each, it's not something I like to replace often. Also, our tubes have fallen out repeatedly. I extended one once, and it held for 4 months, but it fell into the stove this week. We've had the entire mechanism for the flapper replaced once, and modified another time. The old style was exceedingly poorly engineered, the current version is only poorly engineered. The metal clips holding in the tubes are lousy, and there's no shelf that holds the firebrick from shifting. The expansion and contraction are horrendous, and the tubes are a good 1/4" too short. And on the glass, the stupid clips are simple flat plates, they should have a ledge on them to keep the glass from sliding down (We have to reset them at least once a year).

I've got to look into this "lifetime guarantee." All I know is my dealer has been pretty good, but is tired of dealing with it, and hasn't pursued any big fixes on the flapper problems recently (I should ask again). I wrote a long letter to Quadrafire detailing our problems in late 2006, and never heard a word back. I've kicked myself for not going for the Harmon the dealer had, more $$, but much beefier.

I'm almost ready to bad-mouth them about this stove, but will hold off after hearing some good praise in this forum.

I'm open to any advise!
Thanks, Larry

 

[Jags]

Wow uptown.... :gulp:

I have ran mine for 6 heating seasons, with none of your issues. I did have to tighten one of the screws for the glass that you are talking about, but I am still on all the original firebrick and burn tubes. I will admit that I do not use the top load feature, but a very small percentage of the time. The first question I would have to ask to you is this: What types of stove top temp are you running at???

 

[Uptownlarry]

Jags,
I don't know how hot we're running it--we don't use a thermometer, maybe we should. I don't think we run it excessively hot. The lodgepole does burn hot and fast, but we choke it back to 5-25% open (many times my wife chokes it back too much, too fast, IMHO). I do think that it's the use of the top loading feature that is the difference. Since we use ours a lot, the firebrick shifts back and forth ever so slightly, the metal flexes and deforms under heat load, and the mechanism commonly seizes. We've turn to not using the handle much at all (we've broken 3 of them over time), we need to use a poker to pry up the flap, and push it back while the top is open. As I said, the original mechanism was completely replaced--it had those handles that detached when not in use, and a set screw held the handle onto a shaft--boy that didn't last long! I must say...why use the front load when you've got a top load? I really like not having ash fall out each time we load it, we rarely get a puff of smoke into the room with it open, and all but the miss-cut or miss-split logs we have fit in the top. Our stove is only 4" off the main floor, so our 50+ yr old backs don't have to bend way over to load the thing!

Also--have you broken off the chessy andirons? The metal holding the swinging andirons has fatigued, and one of the screws broke off in the cast iron years ago for us.
Larry (not just the lurker anymore)

 

[Jags]

Larry,
First of all, welcome to the wonderful world of hearth.com. If you have been a lurker, you know that this is a great place with lots of info abound.

Second, GET A THERMOMETER they are inexpensive and one of the only "Sure" ways you will know what your stove is really doing.

Third (and this is only a knee jerk reaction pointing out the other side of the fence), sounds like you may be over firing your stove. Are these parts that you are replacing actually wore out, or are they fatiguing? Almost every internal stove failure you have mentioned has this smell of burnt metal. The andirons that you just mentioned, on mine are still malleable enough that if I inadvertently "wack it" with a big round during loading, I can simple bend it back into place (I usually do this when the stove is good and hot to minimize the fatigue). I am pretty consistently bouncing wood off of the firebricks and have yet to even crack one. My burn tubes show no signs of ANY future failure and feel like they are properly spaced, with only a small amount of front to back movement. All gaskets and joints are inspected yearly, and are in quite good shape. This is after more than 30 full cords of wood fed thru it. A good cleaning and a little stove polish and this could pass as a "slightly" used stove. And to boot, this heats a 110 yr old 1700+ sq ft farm house on an unprotected hill on the Wisconsin/Illinois boarder. My point there is: it is really used for heat.

Once again, on the surface, it sounds like this stove may be getting its fair share of beatings. If it sounds like I am defending the stove, it is not intentional. I simply believe that we may have to look a little deeper into the failures. A stove top and Stack temp thermometer should be very high on the "list of things to do for next years wood burning".

Not only is it the proper "safety features" to have, it is the best way to monitor your stove for proper operation.

As a side note: even at a stove top temp of 700+ degrees I have never had my mechanism for the top load feature "flex" or stick at anytime. I use the front load because of a steamer pot on top of the stove. And if you have ash falling out of the doors when you open it, clean the ash out. It will hold 2 gallons of ash just in the firebox alone before it starts to fall out.

 

[Uptownlarry]

Thanks for the suggestions--I'll get the thermometers. I should clarify, that it wasn't the andirons that broke--it was the screw, it broke off in the andiron. One is still on there. Yes, we do clean out the ash. We learned after the first fire season to not clean it out as much as we had. Instead of always emptying the ash, we leave a bed on the bottom, reburn the ash to a fine powder, and take out about 50% of it weekly, rather than most daily. I mention the ash falling, only that some accumulates near the bottom of the front doors, and without sweeping up that bit, it falls out.
We're still burning here almost daily, buds are just now coming out on the trees in the Northern Rockies, so I'll get a chance to see how hot we really are getting the top of the stove.
Thanks again, Larry

 

[elkimmeg]

Larry I agree with Jags. Most of what you are describing as parts failures point to excessive heat I have 4 stove top thermometers just to check their consistancies and accuracy.
I want to know what going on at all times I then can make adjustments . The thermometers are the learning tools. I am able to dial in just the right amount of air to get the heat I want.
but more important they indicate when corrective actions are required to prevent overfiring. They are my training tool to run the stove effeciently. When its cold my griggle stop temp is 550 to 650 and I rairly will ever let it go above 700. This is cast iron stove usage Steel plate stove may be run higher than 800 degrees Infact my manual says it is safe at 750. I also know at times there is uneven heating and if 750 one area it could be a lot hotter another place. I error on the side of safety by limiting it to 650. I look at it that the stove will be running 24/7 mand I would rather bring up the heat slowly over a longer period of time than risk destroying my stove rushing it or pushing it.

Again to me, I think you are opperating that stove too hot and the replacementsp arts are indicating my thoughts.

 

[Jags]

"Larry I agree with Jags" :coolsmile: Oh, yeah, whooos ya daddy, go Jags, go Jags. Just joking here folks.

Good point with leaving a layer of ash in the bottom of the stove, really does make for all around better burning.

 

[Uptownlarry]

All, Thanks for your help. After more searching in the forums, it looks like one of my problems is likely excessive draft. We're running the Isle Royale up a new metal flue through our 3 story house--working out to something like a 28 ft straight shot to the sky. Clearly, we don't lack for draft--all 3 floors are finished, so the chimney only has ~3 ft of cold pipe outside. I haven't had a chance to get a thermometer yet, but I'll bet the stove can be on the hot side.
I read last year's posts about cat stoves being easier to control under such conditions, and the non-cats, like ours, being difficult to control. I'm somewhat surprised that my dealer (who installed the stove and the chimney) didn't mention the possibilities for overdraft and over firing.
When it cools down again, and we fire it up, I'll religiously check the temperatures.
thanks again, Larry

 

[elkimmeg]

Lary you may need to install an inline damper in your connector pipe. Others that have strong drafts have had to do the same.

That explains how it was easier to get your stove on the hot side and why it required so many replacement parts. Too bad it took this long before you figured it out but hopefully the inline dasmper restores control and get a stove thermo so you know what is going on

 

[Gooserider]

Another key thing which is important on any stove, but moreso in a situation like yours is to make sure all your gaskets and seals are in really good shape and are thoroughly sealing the stove, as you need to be sure that the ONLY air getting in is going through the official controls. Also check the seal on your connection to the chimney and on any exposed chimney pipe joints. A high draft setup like yours is going to be more sensitive to leaks, and the probable past over firing may have warped parts so as to make leaks more likely.

Gooserider