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Posted By Sandycane,
Sep 27, 2008 at 8:59 PM
Close-up of pipe connection from existing gas stove...
Bedroom/office/sewing room with gas stove connected...
btw, the kitchen chimney/flue looks just like this one.
btw, the kitchen chimney is half as wide (not square), not as tall, and cap is missing.
My wonderful 'bargain' stove...
Hi Sandy, if it was my house I would get a thimble kit with a triple wall heat shield system as well as a some sort of heat shielding on the two walls, maybe some sort of hearth shield or have a mason install a nice brick hearth. . There is no way I would run a woodstove in that set up without some major changes. Spend the extra money now and do it right or wait till you can afford it.
If I'm reading this correctly, you want to put a woodstove in a bedroom. If that's the case, one of the first things you should probably do is run that idea past your local Authority Having Jurisdiction...county/municipality building/community development/safety dept or whoever thay may be. Some jurisdictions prohibit installation of solid fuel-burning appliances in bedrooms. This may well have some bearing on the direction you go. Rick
Thanks Jim and Rick.
Regarding the 'codes' I doubt there are any here but I'll check. What do folks do who have a one room cabin to heat???
I have no idea what this means. Can you explain it in detail...with pictures if possible. lol
We use one of those scary barrel stoves. For a few hours in the evening. I would definitely not use this in the house but in a 100 year old drafty ranger cabin, it works. In the "good old days" they used to have 4 people staying there 24/7, I'm still trying to figure out how this did this!
You can't use this chimney without relinning it first. That is an old style chimney, no clay liner like the other chimney has. It would be against code and dangerous to use this without a reline. You can find stainless steel liner kits on line for $400.
Good grief! That is scary.
I just got off the phone with my uncle who lived here when he was young - pre 1950 and pre natural gas. He said they had a pot belly-type wood stove vented into this chimney...using regular stove pipe.
Still, I am getting all negative reviews on this particular stove so, I think I will return it for something more substantial.
Thanks for all the help so far...I will keep you posted on any new developments.
Hi Sandy, the thimble set up I was mentioning is in the last link in fossil's thread. It fits into the chimney or liner and alows a gap/air space between ite pipe and the combustable wall. You can have a certified installer do it if your not comfortable doing it yourself. You might want to look around for a good used stove that is in good shape rather than a lower cost stove new.
Don't get discouraged it actually isn't as bad as it may seem once you get what you need.
Too late for that.
For the record, I've been doing some extra-serious thinking about this tonight and I've made a decision...
For now, I'm going to keep this stove, pipe and accessories, store it in the back room and save it for an emergency situation. Should I need to use it, I'll take the advice offered here regarding safe set up and installation. It's small, light weight and relatively easy to handle and if installed properly, I think it will be safe for what I'll use it for. If I decide to use one permanantly, I'll invest in a bigger and better one.
I'm also hoping the cost of natural gas doesn't go crazy.
My plate is full right now and I just can't see creating more work for myself if it isn't absolutely necessary.
I greatly appreciate all of the expert advice and encouragement for you folks. Thank you so much for your help.
When I need to fire up the Logwood, I'll be back!
Sandy, you have talked about the stove, but what do you have in the way of wood ? $600 for heating an entire winter is not much. Natural gas is the cheapest fuel besides wood, unless you have access to free wood and consider the work of chainsawing, splitting and stacking to be part of your lifestyle, as opposed to something worthy of your time. It sounds like you would not burn much wood to get you through the winter. My uncle goes through about 1 cord per winter and he is in VA just inland from Chesapeake bay.
None of these things are bad, but they do impact how your investment in wood burning is amortized (the "business case", as it were). On the other hand, it is possible that the investment in a better stove and chimney may be financially OK with you. In that case a small steel plate stove runs from $380 (CFM 1000 sq ft stove at Menards) to something in the $700 price range for the small Englander. If it were feasible to run an insulated flex liner down your existing chimney, it would add a lot of safety to your setup, since it seems that the internal walls/framing is too close to that masonry chimney for safety. Bear in mind that natural gas appliances can be vented through aluminum pipe, whereas a chimney for a woodstove is stainless steel double wall with 1" of packed insulation between the inner and outer pipe. NG appliances can never create creosote which is why the venting pipe does not have to be designed to withstand a chimney fire. If you were to see a chimney fire, which is when creosote that has been deposited over time in the chimney finally manages to ignite, it is a very scary thing. Roars like a freight train and sends flame and sparks flying high into the air out the chimney cap. The temperatures can become hot enough to melt the sand in concrete and crack the clay liners. Of course, often before it reaches that point, it gets the surrounding combustibles near the chimney hot enough that they reach ignition.
So that in a nutshell is why woodstove flue systems have to be so carefully designed, and why you want a woodstove that is EPA compliant (because it produces no noticeable smoke, and condensed smoke is creosote).
Having a woodstove lends a particular ambiance to a home, especially the new ones with big windows and the spectacular fire caused by the smoke being burnt by the secondary air system. Its even better than a fireplace. In your circumstance, if funds are tight and you don't already have at least a cord of seasoned wood on hand, I think that going the woodburner route is not the best decision. I live in a much more northerly climate and the winters can be 6 months long with below freezing conditions for that duration and I heat my home with a combination of scrounged wood and some that I buy from a local tree service guy. My total wood bill ls generally less than $500/winter and my utilities (NG and electricity) run less that $75 per month in winter. So for me it is a huge saving (some of my co-workers pay $450-600 per MONTH) on NG bills in January and Feb. That savings allows me to spend more on a bigger, nicer and more expensive stove, because I am still on a budget.
Last year I spend $2200 for a Morso 7110 stove, and about another $700 for the chimney materials, which I installed myself. The stove turned out to have too small a firebox to allow it to burn for an acceptable length of time meaning I was tending it just before midnight every night and then again at 6am every morning. Before leaving for work I would stuff it to the gills and get it cranking and by the time I walked in the door at 5:30 pm the temperature would have dropped down close to the furnace thermostat setpoint (60F). But the savings in NG costs amortized the cost of the stove in 1 season. This season, I will be amortizing the cost of the chimney and the new woodsplitter I bought, which shortened the task of splitting from many weeks to only a few days. I bought a bigger stove (Pacific Energy T5), which will leave my schedule less constrained (longer burns) and the Morso is being installed in the basement living room where it will see occasional use, not 24/7. With heating costs up 30-50% compared to last winter and my cost for wood unchanged, I expect to save even more this season than last, so I should break even half way through next winter. From that point it is downhill all the way.
I have no wood but I do have a source who sells a cord for $65. I would have to buy wood because I'm not handy with a chain saw, although there is plenty of free wood to be had around here. I estimated a cord might last me a winter.
I also considered the fire schedule and didn't like the idea of having a fire going in the house untended when I was away at work for 8 hours.
I just think this whole idea will cost me more in work, worry and problems than it will save me on the gas bill. I could change my mind again when more information is gathered.
Think and plan way ahead of time. budget realistically, and do the wood--safely. If you are thinking it is going to take you 2 years to get a epa-approved stove and liner on your budget. then plan ahead so if that is what you are going to do and be comfy with wood heat. then start stock-piling your wood supply right now. It`s do-able.
Just think it thru and I believe that within a couple of years we will see you on this forum as a dedicated wood burner, doing it right and doing it safely. Maybe you will have to scrimp and save a bit for that initial expense, but once you have got it all together. you will never look back, and also wonder how you could possible have lived without that comfy and cozy wood heat And the future savings? Well, we already know about that. :coolsmirk:
Here's an idea. If you're not going to use a stove this year, then spend some money on wood. Buy three cords off of the guy for 195 and stack it somewhere. Next year when you get a good stove and get it put it in, you'll have very dry wood.
If you get a good EPA stove and not an EPA exempt stove, then don't worry about burning it when you're not at home. It will be fine. You don't save tons of money burning a stove when you're home. You save tons of money burning the thing 24/7. Say two dollars every time you load it, times 3 times a day, time 30 days, equals 180 and month. Depending on the size of your stove, that might be close to four dollars a load.
What's priceless, is the next few months when it starts to get cold and everybody is holding off using their furnaces and you're stilling wearing shorts in your house. We had a high of 69 today with a low of 40 something tonight. The house got a little chilly this evening and I didn't want to put long pants and socks on, so I threw two hand fulls of junk short ends of left over wood in the stove and I'm at 75 right now inside.
Count your blessings; My fuel oil bill would have been over $3000.00 this year, buying firewood is $1500, and cutting and splitting enough of my own, dropped and hauled out of the woods, pure agony. Stick with the gas, take the stove back, and by a new robe.
Excellent advice...please keep it coming, I'm paying attention.
Thanks, Kenny. I needed a good laugh this morning. ;-P
I'll buy a new robe and try to conserve on the gas usage but, I think I'm still going to hold onto this stove and stock up on wood...it's better than money in the bank.
...and then there's Global Warming (and Peak Oil) to look forward to.
Sandy, you have gotten lots of excellent info from the other posters. But......get rid of that stove. That thing is NOT safe for a home install. Period. Not even temporary use.
This is just my opinion, of course, but you seem to be a safety minded type person. Return it while you can. In the future, if you choose to go the way of wood, get the stove of your choice at that time. That POS would not even rate storage area in my place.
I am in no way trying to bust your bubble, just a long time forum member that wants to see you return safely.
If you wait- then you'll have a stove that you cannot use or return. Get rid of it while you can!
Good for you taking the time to ask the right questions, and good luck!
I just got off the phone with the Co-op guy and he said 'no problem' returning the POS. lol
What convinced me, besides all your good advice, was actually seeing a comparrison between an EPA and non-epa stove burning on the video posted here in another thread. http://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/24034/
That's when I decided to call the co-op.
They have an Ashley, model EC-95 in stock. Is this a good stove?
Do any of you live close to TN??? I need an expert to actually come to my house and tell me EXACTLY what I need to be safe and warm...besides a new robe! :lol:
Good for you! The Ashley is safer, but to my knowledge not an EPA stove. Ask what other brands they carry or can get. See if they have any Englander stoves (also sold as Summer's Heat and TimberRidge brands). If not, it sounds like they do carry US Stove brand which does have some EPA stoves in their lineup. For example the APS 1100 which is a bit less than the Ashley in price.
How big is the home? Can you post a picture of the living room area where the stove will be going? That will help us assess the location's needs and clearances.
Thanks! I'll 'get it' one of these day...I'll bet you guys feel like you're watching a ping-pong match and I'm the ball. lol
Between posts, I pulled up the manual for the Ashley and found it wasn't epa. Yesterday, I found Englander online and that Lowes is a distributor. Lowes has it listed as 'Summers Heat' brand stove.
Off to find the manual for that one....
ps: pictures are on page 2 of this thread. Someone mentioned a concern about putting the stove in a bedroom...well it's actually a living room with a bed. The floor plan of the house is like this:
Living room, front room of house with outside door (I have made it my bedroom)
Dining room, which I have made into the living room, with 6'x6' opening between it and the front room, a door to another bedroom and attic stairs
Kitchen, back room of house with a door between it and the middle room (dining/living room) kitchen also has an outside door, a door to the back proch and a door to the small hallway to the bedroom and attic stairs.
Lots Of Doors In This House!! :bug:
I have a floor plan image at home I can post later that may make the layout more clear.
If you have insurance, that is the first to check regarding what they will or won't cover. If they want an inspection to maintain coverage, you need to figure out who will do the inspection and what they will agree with. Sometimes you need to change the furniture placement to get the stove signed off (if the room is used as a bedroom). Bedrooms have had open fireplaces in them for eons and there are still humans on the planet. Read up about the old dwellings in Ireland where there were no windows, just a single door and the smoke from the fire left the house through the doorway, now that is rough... Even the Mexicans do better than that.
If your masonry chimneys are a problem, it does not neccersarily have to break the bank putting in a regular Class A chimney. It looks like you have a ranch style house, so if the stove is placed right you can have single wall stovepipe to just below the ceiling and a few lengths of class A through the attic and roof. I think a liner in the existing chimneys would be safer than trying to use the existing chimneys the way they are and if it is insulated (the liner) it is safer still and certainly less expensive than a new chimney. You may have to put in a new wall thimble for the hook up, since it does not look like you have masonry where the pipe breaks through into the chimney. Doing the wall thimble is really quite simple framing work.
If you have access to coal in town, another good option is a coal stove. Coal stoves have not changed much in the last 15 years, other than coal falling out of favor with most people. Coal is a lot less work than wood and is very compact, particularly if you buy a 1 ton pallet of bagged coal (between $200-350 depending on how far from the mine you live). It doesn't get wet, doesn't rot and there are no critters that eat it. Coal stoves will also generally burn at least 12 hours on a load, which is good for people who have to go to work.
Locations to get coal: KENTUCKY
6073 Metcalf Mill Pike
Ewing, KY 41039
Products: Bagged Coal and Stoves
Blue Ridge Heating and Air, Inc.
925 Cambria Street
Christiansburg, VA 24073
Products: Bagged Coal, Stoves
Edwards & Son
6541 Edwards Lane
Port Republic, VA 24471
Products: Bagged Coal, Stoves
3 J Trucking
Rt. 1, Box 116
Newburg, WV 26410
(304) 864-3638 Products: Bagged Coal, Stoves
There are many more places but this is another option to consider.