New Construction question

[beekeeper]

Hi folks,
This is a great site and I've already learned a lot. I'm planning to build a house this summer and am considering putting a fireplace in the basement - probably either an Xtrordinair Elite 44 or the Quadrafire 7100. Before I learned very much I was envisioning building a traditional masonry chimney with a couple of flues - one for a small stove upstairs and the other flue for the fireplace in the basement.

Now I'm realizing that I'll have to go with a stainless chimney anyway for the new fireplace, so here are a couple of questions:

1. If I run the stainless through an outside chase (framed chimney), can I run a few feet straight up from the fireplace, do a 90 degree turn and go through a nice neat hole in my concrete basement wall, then turn another 90 degrees back to vertical and run up the chimney? The instructions I downloaded on the Xtrordinair seem to indicate that 30 degree bends are all that are allowed, so I'm wondering how most people exit their wall into the exterior chase.

2. Is anyone using the additional ducting options that these offer to heat other rooms in the house? Did you try to tie this into your central heating system, or did you just run separate ductwork? Were you able to keep this from being unsightly?

3. Does anyone have experience with how much savings there really is in using the frame chimney versus masonry?

Thanks!!

 

[jtp10181]

The 7100FP cannot use 90 elbows. 30 deg is the maximum offset allowed. What I would suggest in your application is to have the foundation bumped out where the chase will be and then build the chase on top of that. This would allow you to either set the fireplace back into this little nook or to offset back in the basement and got into the chase about without penetrating the foundation.

We have found that the Heat Zone options on the 7100 work alright. They work best with short runs going up with minimal elbows. I have a feeling they would work even better if the AUX air was ducted to the room the heat zone was in, this would allow for better air transfer back to the unit and then out back through the Heat Zone kit. FYI the 7100FP has no kit that lets you duct heat into the furnace ducting.

Also FYI the 7100FP does not use just any "stainless" Class A system. You can either use the SL300 air cooled pipe or convert the unit to use Simpson DuraPlus.

Sorry I don't know anything about the Xtrordinair Elite 44

If you have any other questions about the 7100FP I can try to help.

 

[beekeeper]

JTP,

Thanks for the quick response. Your suggestion on the foundation makes sense - glad I'm learning some of this stuff before I actually start the house. We may be pouring walls in a month or so. I've been pretty impressed with the Quad from what I've seen online, but the closest dealer is about 80 miles away - think I should be concerned?

Also, what's the size of the ductwork that I would attach to the Quad if I were to do the remote zone heating? From the picture it just looks like fairly small round ductwork - I think it's called B-vent pipe? Is that something I could easily run myself and attach to the bottom of the floor joists in the basement after the house is finished, or is it something the HVAC guys would have to do? If I did this I would probably try to just hit some of the main rooms on the first floor - I don't think I'd try to run up to the 2nd story or anything . . .

Do you see a lot of the framed chimney/chase systems in use, or do most folks just run up thru the living space?

Thanks,
Beek

 

[jtp10181]

Its probably about 50/50 on the interior vs exterior chases in this area. You definitely want to insulate and drywall the entire exterior walls of the chase like every other outside wall at LEAST on the floor the fireplace is in. For best performance Quad recommends (I think even in the manual) bringing the entire chase inside the envelope of the house, obviously up to the ceiling of the top most floor, then it becomes attic.

The Zone heating is limited to two ducts and it uses a 6" B-Vent. If you can get the Simpson Duravent B-Vent it twist locks right on to the collar that comes with the heat zone kit.

Who is installing the fireplace? Normally those installers would also install the Heat Zone Kit. If you are installing it then you could install the heat zone yourself. Just make sure you maintain listed clearances on the B-Vent pipe because it could become very hot.

If you are handy and can figure things out on your own you probably would not need much dealer support for a wood unit. I can tell you if installed correctly the 7100FP is not problematic at all. The only things you might need are new bricks, glass, handles, baffle boards (in the future). These could all be shipped form the dealer or ordered and picked up. I would check with them and see if you did need some sort of warranty service call what their policy would be. With the newest 7100 units it is doubtful you would need a warranty call though. Quad has got everything very nailed down for reliability and quality on this unit.

 

[beekeeper]

Not sure yet who will be installing the unit. I'm fairly handy, am cautious, and usually know when I don't know something, if you know what I mean. I'll be wiring the house and doing a few other things that I've done myself when I built before. So I don't know if it would be smart for me to tackle this on my own or not. I figure I'll at least take care of getting the chase and the bump-out for the fireplace laid out and built. One question - you mentioned that the chase should be insulated and drywalled; are you talking about fiberglass bats between the framing of the chase, covered by conventional sheetrock so that the inside of the chase is enclosed on all 4 sides with drywall (unless I left it open to the inside of the house as Quad recommends)? Or would I cover the inside of the chase with something more like cement board?

Thanks again for your help.

 

[jtp10181]

You mentioned wiring, if you do go with the 7100FP look in the manual for the switch wiring. It takes a double gang box with a 14/3 going to the unit for the fan switches.

Anyway... yes you want to insulate the chase with whatever you use on the rest of the house. You only need to do the exterior walls, the one wall that is interior should be left without installation so heat can pass through and keep the chase warmer. And yes, you can use normal Sheetrock. The unit has a set clearance away from the shell (I think 1" for the 7100FP) so with that maintained you can have anything back there you want, cement board would be overkill. We also caulk to tape the seams of the drywall inside the chase to make it as air tight as possible, this prevents cold air infiltration behind the fireplace and then into the room.

 

[beekeeper]

Very good--that makes sense. Thanks again for your input on this - it's helping me picture this more clearly.

 

[begreen]

Wiring note, if the stove installed on a 20 amp circuit, it will require 12/3 wiring. 14/3 is rated 15 amp. Quadrafire's manual should make this clearer. They don't. Instead they just show a 14/2 feed which is only rated 15 amp.

 

[beekeeper]

Thanks for the heads up - I'll keep an eye on the current requirements.

Does anyone know if there are detailed plans/designs for a frame chimney on the Internet?

 

[jtp10181]

Wiring note, if the stove installed on a 20 amp circuit, it will require 12/3 wiring. 14/3 is rated 15 amp. Quadrafire's manual should make this clearer. They don't. Instead they just show a 14/2 feed which is only rated 15 amp.

That should be an obvious point to anyone doing electrical wiring IMO, if its not then they should not be doing it in the first place.

Next thing you know the fireplace install manual will have show people how to frame up their roof since the pipe goes through it. (We always joke about this at the shop, that the builder wants us to build their house around the fireplace.)

 

[beekeeper]

Well, wiring it is my last concern, although I didn't mind the tip. My interest in the chimney specs was just to get an idea of the clearances as well as a nice looking shape. I'll need to include this in the plans I submit when pulling my building permit of course. I'll probably bug the guy who will be doing my framing - I'm sure he's slapped these on houses before. Thanks.

 

[jtp10181]

Just wanted to make it clear, I wasn't bashing BeGree for giving the tip, as it is relevant. I was just stating that I don't think they need to get into electrical code details in the fireplace manual.

 

[begreen]

Given the wide range of people installing these stoves, I think the diagram should be labeled 15 amp.

15 amp circuits, except for lighting, are less common in houses these days. That's why I pointed this out. It would be a very simple addition to label this in the manual. This is not totally common knowledge. There are a lot of contractors that are pretty weak on electrical code. In our house, for example, I've found more than one instance of 14 ga wire on a 20 amp circuit.

 

[jtp10181]

Yeah I guess it would not hurt just to have something minor stating its for 15amp. I did not realize 20amp circuits were more common in other areas. Around here you will only find them where required, which is anyplace you need to have a GFCI it seems, kitchen, mud rooms, laundry, bathrooms. Everything else in the whole house is run with 14/2 romex on 15A circuits. Only way you could have the 7100FP on a 20A is if you installed it in the kitchen!

One a side note, I know electrical code can vary greatly state to state. Down in IL they don't use romex at all, EVERYTHING is run in conduit. My dad's whole basement is littered with conduit runs. Up here in WI its just exposed romex run everywhere.

If I can manage to think of it while at work I will email the person who writes the Quad manuals and see what she thinks about adding something about 15A circuit to the picture.

 

[youngstr]

beekeeper,
I have a FX Elite 44 and am very happy with the unit. To address your questions, my chase is an indoor...so the fireplace bumps into our family room(our chimney just goes straight up). We have cathedral ceilings, so bumping it inwards with stone/brick from floor to ceiling added a nice effect. Additionally, it eliminated the need to angle the chimney for the bump out chase and the chase on the outside on the house. I never looked at tying the FX into our central heat. The hot air blows out the front of the unit so I imagine the only thing you could tie in would be the air intake to the blower.

 

[jebatty]

Just for my education - if the stove is rated 14/2 - 15 amp and it's fed from a 20 amp circuit, is there a danger issue if an electrical failure in the appliance? that is, might the appliance through failure be drawing more than 15 but less than 20 amps and cause overheating, fire, etc.? If fed from a 20 amp circuit, should there be a 15 amp fuse/breaker box for the 15 amp appliance?

 

[begreen]

Tying a 15 amp appliance into a 20 amp circuit will not harm the appliance in any way. It has all the amperage it needs.

The risk of hard wiring the skinnier wire into the heavier amperage circuit is that the narrower wire, in this case the 14 ga, can overheat and not blow a breaker or fuse. A common scenario might be where a motor is overloading or has a bearing is failing. In this case there may be say a 16 amp load on the circuit, yet as far as the breaker is concerned, it's not time to trip. The 14 ga wire in this situation can get red hot. If it's buried in the walls, that can mean a fire.