New EPA regulations.

[begreen]

Jeremy, could you also post your findings in Joful's steel vs ceramic thread? This is good info for future purchasers. Let us know what Condar says if they get back to you.
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/steelcat-vs-ceramic-my-verdict.122935/#post-1648031

 

[branchburner]

once its ignited the heat from the burn easily drives temperatures inside the catalytic chamber to the levels that flue gasses would reburn spontaneously.

I think of it more like a chemical wood reactor than a wood stove

Good point - thanks.

I guess I am thinking more in terms of a general ability to control the burn, so a cat stove seems to be able to burn a bit less wood to derive the same amount of productive heat. I am just assuming that this is because cat combustion, while still needing good draft, is less draft-dependent than the secondary burn in a non-cat. So once secondary burn is occurring, a non-cat is more prone than a cat to burn at the temp IT wants to burn at (ie, to run away or cook you out or throw heat up the flue).

In other words, a cat system can maintain a clean burn with less air input, and therefore create more useable heat without as much of that heat being driven outside by draft. Does that seem fair to say?

 

[jharkin]

Jeremy, could you also post your findings in Joful's steel vs ceramic thread? This is good info for future purchasers. Let us know what Condar says if they get back to you.
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/steelcat-vs-ceramic-my-verdict.122935/#post-1648031

Yep, just did this morning, and also had a lot of discussion back and forth on this topic on pages 9-13 or the 2013 VC discussion thread. If you read through all that ignore my posts freakign out about out of control burns with the new one - that was a pure coincidense where a bit of carbon had jammed my primary air open and I was able to fix it.

I was the guy having long PM discussions about his topic with Joful. The F12 and the Encores/Defiants certainly present similar operating changes but they do downdraft a bit differently. The Jotul design drives the flue gases down first then up through the cat from what I understand, where as the VC system actually drives the gasses down through the catalyst itself, and then back up again. Probably why VC is the trickiest of all

I'm starting to wonder if a Woodstock style inconel screen on the cat hood opening of a VC might be a help to prevent flame impingement and cat damage. The VC design suffers from an issue where if you let the cat seriously overheat (talking 1800+ here) you can get in a situation where spontaneous secondary combustion happens in front of the cat (preheated secondary air is injected into this area right in front of the cat, similar to the F12). This is what happens when you see reports of glowing upper firebacks in a Vermont stove. It happened to me once and scared the living #(*%&*($ out of me.

 

[teutonicking]

Interesting article


http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...ctions-for-new-wood-stoves/?intcmp=latestnews

Stay warm.

Here is a link to the EPA website with more information on the new regulations:

http://www2.epa.gov/residential-woo...erformance-standards-residential-wood-heaters

 

[KindredSpiritzz]

Interesting article, don't know if its been shared yet. First i heard of a "ban" as sweeping as this. not sure how much of it i believe.
Sorry if its repetitive.

http://www.cfact.org/2014/01/29/epa-ban-on-wood-stoves-is-freezing-out-rural-america/

"Most wood stoves that warm cabin and home residents from coast to coast cannot meet that standard. Older stoves that don’t cannot be traded in for updated types, but instead must be rendered inoperable, destroyed, or recycled as scrap metal."

 

[Christopix]

Interesting article, don't know if its been shared yet. First i heard of a "ban" as sweeping as this. not sure how much of it i believe.
Sorry if its repetitive.

http://www.cfact.org/2014/01/29/epa-ban-on-wood-stoves-is-freezing-out-rural-america/

"Most wood stoves that warm cabin and home residents from coast to coast cannot meet that standard. Older stoves that don’t cannot be traded in for updated types, but instead must be rendered inoperable, destroyed, or recycled as scrap metal."

Amazing how one persons misunderstandings of the new rules turn into rhetoric that gets people crazy up in arms! The author of that article hasn't done a good job explaining the facts.

 

[bholler]

all this happened when the last set of regulations came in and I think most of us agree that those made better stoves so I don't see why these wont make the stove manufacturers improve again

 

[begreen]

Interesting article, don't know if its been shared yet. First i heard of a "ban" as sweeping as this. not sure how much of it i believe.
Sorry if its repetitive.

http://www.cfact.org/2014/01/29/epa-ban-on-wood-stoves-is-freezing-out-rural-america/

"Most wood stoves that warm cabin and home residents from coast to coast cannot meet that standard. Older stoves that don’t cannot be traded in for updated types, but instead must be rendered inoperable, destroyed, or recycled as scrap metal."

Heaven forbid the new stoves are actually desirable and super efficient. This is a political article based on partial facts and scare tactics. New CARB regs have not taken older cars off the street. Attrition will do that. Same for stoves.

 

[Christopix]

New CARB regs have not taken older cars off the street. Attrition will do that. Same for stoves.

Super good point!

 

[stoveguy2esw]

attrition with old stoves will take a long period of time, unlike cars which being mechaniocal devices which do tent to be affected by wear and tear (and trade in value) would cycle out of the market place faster, old woodstoves (like the fishers and such) are built so solid they dont generally get used up, especially if one is skilled in repairing them (welding). and since they do "work" many owners will not have any desire to spend a pretty good sized chunk of money to upgrade.

 

[branchburner]

attrition with old stoves will take a long period of time, unlike cars

I've got a 100-year-old parlor stove in my barn. While it hasn't been used in 40 years, its in perfect shape, and could be fired up today by someone who needs some heat but doesn't want to sink a grand or two into a new stove.

I also have a feeling that if older stoves and newer EPA-exempt stoves were suddenly banned from being sold, you would have homemade stoves taking their place. Its a lot easier to throw together a metal box in your shop than to throw together a vehicle that must be registered and insured in order to be used.

 

[begreen]

More press today on ABC. I saw this article repeated in our local paper.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=22638554
The author got it partially right but needs to do more homework. Commentary period ends in a few days. Before commenting, gather your thoughts so that it's not a pointless rant. Also note what is driving this. Seven states are suing the Federal Govt. for tighter wood burning regs so far.
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article...s-sue-epa-crack-down-residential-wood-burning

Commentary here:
http://www2.epa.gov/residential-woo...source-performance-standards-residential-wood

 

[Bigg_Redd]

those companies which are able to field stoves in this range will have several models available , those who aren't able to , well, they wont be around. simple as that

as it sits , when we fielded the 30-nc , it was at 1.6GPH the lowest emission 3+cf box on the market in non cat, it wouldn't pass as its not below 1.3GPH to be honest most of the pellet stoves out there aren't even close to the 1.3 benchmark.

new woodstoves are being developed as are pellet stoves, gonna be a long hard haul for the industry to meet these changes in that short a time. its doable , but it aint gonna be a piece of cake.

FWIW, I think money would be far better spent in this field getting the old pre epa units out of service. for every one of those that's taken out of use it removes the equivalent of quite a few epa units at the current level's emissions.

imagine how much cleaner the air would be if every stove today was modern versus what we have today with the percentage of older tech stoves still being used

Maybe. But the formula remains true: Buy your heat from the power company no matter how wasteful = acceptable, while providing your own heat = unacceptable

I think we're becoming a nation of dependents. So much so that regulatory agencies drive us in that direction and don't even bother to hide it.

 

[1750]

New CARB regs have not taken older cars off the street. Attrition will do that. Same for stoves.

Cash for Clunkers was pretty popular and resulted in getting almost 700k hoopties off the streets. I think California still incentivizes retirement for cars that fail emissions testing.

If we are serious about this, it seems to me that the best approach is to work both ends of this equation. Provide cleaner burn requirements to encourage R&D by the manufacturers AND financial incentives to get the dirtiest stoves out of operation. Unlike cars and trucks that may only have a useful life of a couple of decades, as branch burner suggested, many of these stoves could last forever.

 

[begreen]

States should regulate wood sellers. If they want to sell certified seasoned wood it has to have a moisture content (measured on freshly split face of wood) of 20% or less. Otherwise it can't be sold as certified seasoned wood and they can be fined for doing so. Pricing for unseasoned wood should be either significantly less, or maybe significantly more.

 

[bholler]

I like that idea begreen

 

[HotCoals]

States should regulate wood sellers. If they want to sell certified seasoned wood it has to have a moisture content (measured on freshly split face of wood) of 20% or less. Otherwise it can't be sold as certified seasoned wood and they can be fined for doing so. Pricing for unseasoned wood should be either significantly less, or maybe significantly more.

I concur. Of course the price will go up anyways because they will have to store the c/c/s wood for a season at least. But i think you're right on.

 

[branchburner]

States should regulate wood sellers. If they want to sell certified seasoned wood it has to have a moisture content (measured on freshly split face of wood) of 20% or less.

It's sort of funny, given how pervasive the regulation of commerce is, that people are allowed to charge a premium for "seasoned" wood when there is no definition for what "seasoned" might technically be. Imagine if that was the case in other areas, like food: could you sell a raw ham as "cooked" without potentially getting in trouble?

 

[branchburner]

Cash for Clunkers was pretty popular and resulted in getting almost 700k hoopties off the streets.

It's too bad the required MPG standards were not higher. A person could trade in an SUV that got 14 mpg and get a $3,500 towards a new 18-mpg SUV. Why not require 25 or even 30 mpg to get your "free" money?

Unfortunately also, the gains in efficiency were partially offset by the energy costs involved in manufacturing the new cars, and many perfectly good parts were shredded (by law) rather than recycled as parts, meaning even MORE energy and resource loss.

There will generally be an inherent conflict in programs that attempt to both boost economic activity AND reduce resource consumption, since consuming (and yes, WASTING) resources in and of itself boosts economic activity.

If we were to scrap every existing stove and replace it with a brand new one, we cannot ignore the environmental impact (resource depletion, pollution, etc.) that goes along with producing AND transporting all those new stoves.

 

[pen]

I wonder what percentage of firewood sold goes through sellers that report to the gov't as a business.

Around here, it's extremely low, I'd have to bet in the single digits % wise, or even less.

Point is, for the better or for the worse, I see a change like this significantly increasing the pricing of wood...... In all, if there were to happen, I'd be more apt to start a bio brick / eco / etc, delivery business. I certainly wouldn't want to play with firewood anymore and the price of these man made fuels might not look so bad anymore.

Overall, that would mean more trees going to these companies to make more bio bricks (etc),,,, bottom line, I just can't see anyway around an increase in price for the consumer....... If only people would keep a few years ahead and do the seasoning themselves..

 

[HotCoals]

I wonder what percentage of firewood sold goes through sellers that report to the gov't as a business.

Around here, it's extremely low, I'd have to bet in the single digits % wise, or even less.

Point is, for the better or for the worse, I see a change like this significantly increasing the pricing of wood...... In all, if there were to happen, I'd be more apt to start a bio brick / eco / etc, delivery business. I certainly wouldn't want to play with firewood anymore and the price of these man made fuels might not look so bad anymore.

Overall, that would mean more trees going to these companies to make more bio bricks (etc),,,, bottom line, I just can't see anyway around an increase in price for the consumer....... If only people would keep a few years ahead and do the seasoning themselves..

Well i have been.
Thing is I buy 3 cords or so then stack it in the back in the spring where there is already 3 cord or more. Then come fall I move the 3 cord that is now 2 years seasoned into the basement. So I handle the same wood twice.
I pay 70/fc usually . I would not mind paying 80 if the wood was 2 years seasoned to begin with and put it straight into the basement in the fall .But you can't find it.
I'm looking into maybe just buying eco bricks or something.
Take up less space ,low MC and way less ash. Not to mention uniformity and predictability..all that's worth something .

 

[Spud Monkey]

All these rules and regulations, can't wait for it all to collapse on itself and we hit restart button. Maybe they will get something right the second time around, doubt it.

 

[Bigg_Redd]

I think that's just what government at all levels needs to do: regulate firewood. That'd be super. There's no way they can eff that up.

 

[begreen]

WA State already has a foot in the door there. Dept. of Weights and Measures gives you recourse if you are delivered a short cord of wood. I have had to bring this up with a shorted delivery several years back. It brought a swift response. Ya see a lot of these sales are off the books and the last thing they want is the govt. checking on their sales. Same thing would go for damp wood if a reg was on the books. If you have a cord of wet wood delivered and it's advertised as "seasoned" and the govt says seasoned means 20% moisture or less, you can be fairly sure that the seller is going to try to make good quickly.

 

[Spud Monkey]

WA State already has a foot in the door there. Dept. of Weights and Measures gives you recourse if you are delivered a short cord of wood. I have had to bring this up with a shorted delivery several years back. It brought a swift response. Ya see a lot of these sales are off the books and the last thing they want is the govt. checking on their sales. Same thing would go for damp wood if a reg was on the books. If you have a cord of wet wood delivered and it's advertised as "seasoned" and the govt says seasoned means 20% moisture or less, you can be fairly sure that the seller is going to try to make good quickly.

If you going to burn firewood you should have moisture meter to check the MC before any money exchanged or truck is unloaded. As for being delivered shy of a cord I wouldn't let them unload unless I seen it was verifiable cord. All in all the people who sell firewood make it hard for people who want to self sustain.