New Gasification Buyer Questions

[ISeeDeadBTUs]

But 350kBtu WITHOUT storage would be really bad for him. Don't forget Kirk seems very new to many of the concepts behind wood-fired hydronics and storage.

 

[Singed Eyebrows]

OK. I have been reading this forum for quite some time and am ready to buy.

You guys (and girls) are a great wealth of knowledge. But I have some specific questions.

We have to heat about 5000 SQ/FT including upstairs and a basement. I would like the easiest way to do this. I know it will take work, but a $450 propane bill for the last 4 weeks has pushed me to this point.

We live on 10 acres and have a lot of dead trees. The problem is they are mostly Poplar trees and some Elm killed by Dutch Elm.

So here are my questions.

1. I will buy wood if needed. I would like to load as few times as possible per day. I work quite a bit.

2. What is the best (in your opinion) outdoor boiler for this application.

3. In the future I will add a water holding tank. I see from this great forum that this is the way to go.

4. Are there gasification boilers that will take full logs? I do not have a splitter, but will buy one if I have to.

Any other suggestions are needed! I am about to spend a load of money and want to make sure I do the right thing!

Thanks in advance for any help.

Kirk

OK point by point.

5000 sq ft means you need large, think 350k/hr fire rate for the boiler & 1500 gal storage maybe larger. Calculate how many btus you want to store, base this on your schedule/lifestyle, then find a boiler that will get that number of btus into storage in the time frame you are willing to fire it for. That way the system works for you, not the other way around.
1. "I will buy firewood if needed." I agree with others ppl statements that you will need to buy wood, or find from other sources, at least until you have your own supply dried out 15-20% M.C.
1b. "I would like to load as few times as possible per day. I work quite a bit." Me too, bigger means less firing....smaller means more. Makes sense right?
2. "What is the best (in your opinion) outdoor boiler for this application ?" I dont think anyone here would recommend that you buy an OWB, most recommendation's will be for a gasification boiler with storage. I am sure that is what you meant, just wanted to clear it up.
3. "In the future I will add a water holding tank." I suggest that no matter what boiler you choose, that you add storage during the install, otherwise your "I work quite a bit" will have to change to (I work quite a bit, then I go home & spend all my spare time trying to get enough heat in my home because I have no storage to hold me over when I am at work). You & I want the same thing, namely that switching to wood is not a life altering experience. 2 or 3 big fires per day with the bulk of the energy going into storage accomplishes that, 8 or 9 little fires don't, as neither of us would be home to lite them. Easier for us ppl who work a lot to manage payments for something that works rather than adjust our schedules for something that does not work.
4. "Are there any gasification boilers that will take full logs." See I cheated & read ahead knew you meant to say gaser.....Most ppl state they can burn up to 6" rounds with little to no problem. That would be an excellent question for the more experienced users here, namely how full & how big (log diam) can you fill your boiler before it objects either by failing to gassify or by behaving like a run away train? Ask them to state the brand & model of boiler so you can judge what you are willing to accept for performance. I think the GARN would fare best with big rounds, makes sense round fire box, round wood continues to roll to center as it is burned. Square or rectangle fire box, probably bridges as it burns. One thing for sure, if I get a GARN, on day 2, I will find out how it works with a full firebox of large rounds. I just need to let it cool down to say 100 before I try this as there is no way I want to hear 2000 gallons of water boiling, at least not in my boiler. :bug:
4b. "I do not have a splitter, but will buy one if I have to." Buy one, that Elm may take many years to dry to 15-20% if not split. How patient are you & how much room do you have to store wood? While you wait for it to dry. Me...I have lots of both, not sure about your situation. Good luck with your info gathering & choices.

I sure agree with adding storage during the installation if you don't go the Garn route. It's better to get this out of the way up front than to say year after year "I'll get to it", Randy

 

[heaterman]

But 350kBtu WITHOUT storage would be really bad for him.

Most definitely. An oversized gasser ........or an OWB for that matter with no storage is BAD news from what I have seen. Some do it and get away with it but usually only if they are tending many small burns.

 

[heaterman]

I guess heaterman is right, geo thermal will never pay for itself. He could have got a top of the line Garn with a big storage shed and 5 years of firewood. He would have been cheaper off too. I am curious to see how it works.

It's a coin toss really. The bottom line with cord wood burning is that you have some or maybe total control over the price of your fuel. Who knows where fossil fuels or cost per KW are going to be in 6 months let alone 5-10 years down the road. The flip side is that wood requires much more "user input" + the inevitable learning curve.......... often more of a straight vertical line the first year.

 

[Frozen Canuck]

I guess heaterman is right, geo thermal will never pay for itself. He could have got a top of the line Garn with a big storage shed and 5 years of firewood. He would have been cheaper off too. I am curious to see how it works.

It's a coin toss really. The bottom line with cord wood burning is that you have some or maybe total control over the price of your fuel. How knows where fossil fuels or cost per KW are going to be in 6 months let alone 5-10 years down the road. The flip side is that wood requires much more "user input" + the inevitable learning curve.......... often more of a straight vertical line the first year.

Yes, quite often the same situation here. Re: geo...there just is no ROI before you are into costly maintenance/repair. Basically here, unless you have your own lake/body of water, it makes no economic sense.

 

[velvetfoot]

But isn't the cost of bought firewood somewhat indexed to the price of oil or gas? I find that's true around here.
Money doesn't go far nowadays, but how about insulating the heck out of the place first - even that isn't cheap though (foam or other major work). It'd be less effort and money to heat the house.

 

[Frozen Canuck]

But isn't the cost of bought firewood somewhat indexed to the price of oil or gas? I find that's true around here.
Money doesn't go far nowadays, but how about insulating the heck out of the place first - even that isn't cheap though (foam or other major work). It'd be less effort and money to heat the house.

You are right. Nothing that you do, re: heating will give you as rapid an ROI as insulation. Therefore installing the maximum R value that a structure will hold is the best way to go in terms of ROI. The upside is no matter what the temp (too hot or cold) you will be much more comfortable in your home with maximum insulation vs others who are more toward the minimum end of the scale. For those of you thinking of a new home, think SIPs (structural insulated panels); right now we are doing them with R 90 foundation walls (yes below grade) floors, walls & ceilings/roofs. Nice & toasty inside one of those with very little energy to keep it that way.

 

[muncybob]

R 90...wow!! What is the insulation material used and how thick are those walls?

 

[ihookem]

I have been hearing about super insulated walls like that. Never heard of R-90 though. I always heard after R-30 in a wall it doesn't do any good. I have about R-30 -31 in my walls including my brick. My attic has about R 60- 65. How do heat calcs compare between R-30 walls and R 90 walls? Also, it is cheaper to insulate a house well by a long shot.

 

[Frozen Canuck]

R 90...wow!! What is the insulation material used and how thick are those walls?

Material is closed cell foam (some variation on type/chemical composition by manufacturers, mostly in search of the formula that performs best over time/ has the strongest molecular bond) etc.
R 90s are 12" thick. Compared to fiberglass an R 90 would be about 24" thick & would need something to hold it in place. Plenty of info on the www. on all the variations of SIPs, even in a retrofit/renovation they make good economic sense when you consider ROI & the alternatives. I use them whenever possible & encourage my new home customers to really take a long hard look at the SIPs. They just make good economic sense in a building that requires heat.

 

[knjne]

Wow. Information overload!

You guys are a very well informed bunch. Sorry for the late reply.

OK. So the Garn certainly looks excellent. I really NEED to heat about 2300 sq/ft the basement is extra and I only heat it partially, meaning the vents are closed but it still stays over 60 deg/f.

The last 4 week gas bill was $456 with us keeping the house 65 during the day and 61 at night. My goal is to be more comfortable for less money in the long run. Also, we are only paying $1.49 a gallon for propane, we used 288 gallons. I expect propane to be at least $2.50 next year.

We had a GeoThermal quote for $26,000.

I really did not expect to have to build a house for the boiler. Also, we have Ash (as my wife corrected me) not Elm. From looking it up Ash looks better though.

Do you guys think that at the end of the day with inital cost, labor and wood it is worth it in my application?

Thanks so much for your input.

 

[Gooserider]

The basic bottom line, which several have already pointed out, is the key question of how much work you are willing and able to put into the process on an ongoing basis...

Any boiler or other wood burning solution, is going to require you to purchase or produce a large amount of wood - probably on the order of 5-10 FULL (4' x 4' x 8') cords / year at a first guess - and feed some of that wood into a boiler 1-2 times a day during the heating season... In addition you will need to deal with occasionally cleaning out ashes, periodic chimney and boiler cleanings, etc... While those of us on the board probably spend more time than average playing with our wood burners, just like hot-rod enthusiasts like to monkey with their cars more than most, it is still a LOT of work, no two ways around it...

Your original post suggested that you were trying to do something that wouldn't put a lot of extra work / time demands on you, and wood burning is not a good match with that...

Payback from an economic standpoint is fairly fast as such things go, depending on how you do the wood - assuming you do your own processing, the wood is "free" so you will save roughly $4-500 / month, and probably keep your house much warmer (The "Wife Acceptance Factor" rule is that temps tend to go up as operating costs go down....)

Rough guess from other peoples installs is that a Garn + Hookup + Garn-Barn + "toys" for wood processing, install will probably cost you an amount comparable to your Geothermal quote - so figuring 6 mo. / yr heating, = 3K /yr savings, = 8-9 yrs payback, as you really don't have any ongoing operating expenses above what you are paying for electric to run the propane system and a few gallons of gas for chainsaw, splitter, etc. If the price of propane goes up, shorten the payback to match... But this means you have to use it, and if it's to much work, I'm not sure you will want to...

The Geothermal was discussed above, and at least by those numbers doesn't sound terribly appealing... OTOH, the Geothermal doesn't require any more effort to use than the propane system - you need to figure out the priorities in your life...

Gooserider

 

[Frozen Canuck]

Goose is right, you know your priorities we can only guess, most times we will guess wrong. If you want to be relieved of your propane bill then divide your annual propane costs into the cost of various alternatives to arrive at a break even point. Decide if that works for you. The WAF that goose mentioned is the intangible in the equation (for you not her) guarantee that higher temps inside make the WAF go up. This is our 10th winter burning wood (unfortunately not in a gaser) sure wish I had found this site 11 years ago. In that time our natural gas prices have more than tripled, it was under $3 when we got off it, the peak was over $15, it has since returned to about $5.50. So my break even on a $12k total system happened rather fast. You know your local market prices far better than I, so do the math for your situation. Prior to switching to wood our tt was set like yours mid 60s. Now it is set mid to high 70s & she has made it very clear that I need to do whatever is needed to keep it there, no questions asked, no complaints heard. She is happy & it is my job to keep it that way. The WAF. Have fun with your decision making process.

 

[heaterman]

Go here www.eia.doe.gov/neic/experts/heatcalc.xls for a good comparison of what each fuel will cost you. Wood vs. LP vs. electric GSHP vs. etc. etc.


You can simply enter the local fuel cost for each fuel and the efficiency of each heating appliance and the program (excel based) will crunch out a cost per million btus for you.

I would use efficiency numbers as follows:
Gas furnace 90%
GSHP use a COP rating of 3.3 to be safe
If you go with a Garn or a downdraft gasser of some type plug in 75%
For any standard variety OWB use 35%

Electric in Michigan is about 11 cents per KW
Wood can usually be purchased in 8' lengths for $100 or less per cord and use a BTU content of 19,000,000 just to err on the safe side.
Plug in about $1.85 per gallon on LP

The number in the far right column will give you the actual cost per million btu's factoring in efficiency of the appliance.


Also bear in mind that if we get any kind of a world wide economic recovery going, fuel prices will be right back where they were a couple years ago. Add in the fact that the "green
people are hell bent on passing some kind of a carbon tax and you have a recipe for some startling fuel costs.

 

[WoodNotOil]

I burn ash and dead elm primarily in my Tarm. Ash burns extremely well and does not require a long seasoning process. Sounds like you are on the right track...

 

[knjne]

Thanks everyone for all of your help.

I am confident that I can now make an informed decision.