New Stove just not cutting it

[potter]

I agree to give the dealer a chance, if you go in angry, odds are given human nature, he'll dig in his heels. Everyone makes mistakes and miscalculations.
Nearly new, he should be able to sell it pretty easily.

I have to say as someone with a Oslo in the basement of a 1000 sq. ft. home, much advice was given to get a smaller stove. Something else might have worked, but I've seen no down side to "too big".

Beautiful stove! The Oslo is rated to heat 2000 sq ft. if you have it in the basement is your main floor 1000 sq ft.? The basement must be 1000 sq ft right? Are you heating a total of 2000 sq ft?

Jøtul F 500 Oslo
•Maximum heat output: 70,000 BTU/hr
•Heating capacity: Up to 2,000 sq.ft
•Over 75% efficient
•Log length: 22"
•Burn time: Up to 9 hours

No, 1000 includes the basement. And it's probably a bit less than that. House is stone with large stone central chimney. Fireplace directly above stove. Open plan with a loft bedroom. A stairway and floor vents allow heat up. Built in 1980 with many reclaimed materials (some 19th century windows and doors with added storms, and some Andersons that are getting to the end of their life. Insulation between double stone walls, Basement has at least a layer of foam on the outside. (I didn't build it.) Works for me. I'm sure the house could be tighter by modern standards, but I'm heating the place to comfort with 3.5- 4.0 cords a year in WNY. Depending whether I split log loads or have it delivered that costs between 480-600$ a year. Our only other choice is propane which would be hugely more expensive. And I don't feel any drafts.
My main reason in posting is this conversation is always had about the factory ratings, and I find little downside to a bigger stove. The basement, which is not exactly super finished, but comfortable enough is pretty warm- pushing 80 at times, but I enjoy that sometimes this time of year. If that was our living room it might be a little much. I think the sales guy might have been basing his judgement on the way most of his customers use their stoves.

What's great is the chimney and stone mass soak up a of heat, so if I don't burn the stove during part of the day the temp fall off is low. And if I had chosen, say, the Castine I would miss the side door, and burn times.

 

[VCBurner]

It souds like a beautiful home. I love the charm of stone walls and fireplaces! That stove must fit in perfectly there.

You must be losing a great deal of heat to the windows, doors and stone walls. So the Oslo is more adequate than the Castine in your home. I'm an advocate for "bigger is better" mys!elf!

I was surprised that our stoves are similar in size. Yet my stove is considered more of a medium size stove. The company calls them large, but I've seen the firebox size listed as 1.4 cubic feet. It seems to be bigger than that! I can fit up to 23" logs in this thing.

These specs come from the dealer not the company:
Dutchwest 2461 Large Cat
Log Length 22"
Firebox size 1.4 cu ft
Overall size 29¾"H ×26"W × 16"D
Flue size 6" round
Rear flue ht. 30" to top
Load door size(side) 9" × 10"
Avg burn time 9 hours
Max output 40,000 btu
Weight 425 lbs

 

[snowtime]

A couple of thoughts. Your dealer probably has mostly casual burners. The biggest complaint he receives is the stove is to hot to enjoy. Lots of people get stoves just for effect and I know he should have known the difference but I bet he's more worried about over kill than under kill. I bet he saw your old stove and went by its size. Obviously if what you say is true and the old stove is burnt up than the previous owner was overdriving an inadequate stove. Want to bet he knew you were coming to see house and he drove the heat up maybe even supplemented it with electric. He did want to sell his house.
Reiterate that you want to heat the whole house in any weather and ask for an exchange. The summit would be good, I use the T6 which has same firebox and I heat a larger house than yours in -50 so it can be done. I also bet he sells other brands and if you want something else run the name and manufacturer by us. Most stoves are known here.

One other thought is I am snowed in for 1/2 of the year so I do my research on line for I do not want to drive 8 hours round trip in the summer and have the wrong equipment. I have found with few exceptions that dealers are usually pushing one idea or line and not looking out for you. Its a rare dealer in any field that really has the expertise to deliver the proper goods. I know of only one but of course there are others. What I am saying is its up to you to know about any major purchase and what you need. The trick is to be honest about your needs.
Most on this site would tell you that when it comes to wood stoves bigger is better. You can always build a small fire in a big box but not make a small box put out more than its limitations. My vote is for bigger stove and finish insulating the basement. Your new stove will work during power outages. I bet you neighbors furness will not look so good during a power outage. Best of luck.

 

[StealthFarmer]

Thanks again for all the replies and the information on how to attach the insulation and what to use.

This may be a dumb question but what about the floor? It is just bare concrete. Is that supposed to be insulated as well?

Another question. From time to time, I have hit some extremely high temps in the stack probe, up around 1400 which is as high as it went. On those few occasions, I could see the collar where the pipe joins the stack starting to glow if the lights are off. This only happened if I loaded the stove up full and failed to check it fast enough. Sometimes 7-10 minutes wasn't fast enough. It never stayed at the temperature for long. Have I damaged my stove or chimney? There is no paint discolouring or anything like that.

Thanks again.

 

[snowtime]

Those temps are way to high if for no other reason than you are loosing your heat. I think a pipe damper is called for. This will lower pipe temps and increase stove output. I think the long term high temps are a fire hazard and you need to fix the situation. What happens is that a normally safe distance to flammable materials is shortened because many combustibles such as wood have there ignition temp lowered due to excessive heat.
You probably hit on the biggest source of your loosing heat the concrete floor. This changes your 2/3 insulated to less than 1/6 or there abouts. You can put down a floor insulator in the stoves area, any certified floor protector will help but they tend to not be very big so perhaps multiple ones. The previous owner probably didn't because concrete does not burn but you should at least insulate the immediate area. Best of luck.

 

[VCBurner]

This may be a dumb question but what about the floor? It is just bare concrete. Is that supposed to be insulated as well?Thanks again.

There are many ways to insulate the floor, none are cheap. Here are some of the ways you can do this:

1)The same thing that was done to the walls can be done with the floor, using an underlayement substrate such as plywood in place of the drywall. It can then be finished with any floor of your choice.

2) When I used to install carpet, we used to install felt pad right on top of the concrete. (This is commonly done and was a reputable and well respected company owned by a second generation carpet salesman/installer) Using concrete tack strips around the edges of the room and duct tape to hold the felt pad seam around the perimiter and any seams in the middle. This is a great way to do it if you get absolutely no moisture in the basement, which is near impossible. So the best way I see of installing any floor (except straight tyle) is to put a moisture/vapor barrier such as poly (plastic rolls) down on the concrete before puting down anything. There are also moisture resistant paints that can be applyed to the concrete. This will prevent any moisture from being absorbed by ther floor from the slab (the same can be said about the walls). Although the pressure treated wood and foam insulation are pretty well water resistant, some mold can grow between the concrete and the foam/pt wood. This is why it is difficult to properly finish basements and be sure that no mold will develop. Whatever the process and materials are used to finish a basement, a pretty strong dehumidifier is always required, especially in the warm seasons. The wood stove will take care of any moisture in there while in operation.

3)There are produsts out there that can insulate your floor (somewhat) and also block the moisture coming from the concrete. These products often come in rolls and can be easily applyed to the concrete by simply using a specialty scotch like tape. Then a flooring such as lock in place type pergo, floating floor such as vynil roll or hard wood can be applied.

4)There is a hard wood floor sold today that can be glued directly to the concrete. This wood floor is specially treated to block moisture and lock in similar to regular hard woods. I've never installed one of these, but have seen it advertised on line.

5)Ceramic tyle can be directly put on the concrete. This is probably the best way to assure breathability and moisture compatibility. But probably doesn't offer much Rvalue to your floors. My father inlaw has a tyle floor in his raised ranch. He heats his entire house beautifully from his finished basement. I will be doing mine with tyle soon!

I have yet to see scientific measurements on how much heat is lost to concrete floors. The concrete slab is usually well beyond the frost barrier where more constant temperatures are present in the dirt. That factor, plus the heat rises factor are what really stick out in my mind. There's no question that heat is lost to concrete floors. But how much? I am certain that concrete walls that are touching the frost line are far worse a culprit! In my humble opinion, get the wall done and worry about the floor later, unless you have the dough to do it all at once!

Whatever you decide to put on the floors, I would not put anything flammable under the stove. Only tyle, brick, stone or things of the such. Never wood, foam, plastic, carpet, paint or anything flammable.

 

[iceman]

Pipe damper will help.as well as any insulation.... but I think the dealer looked at size of the house to stove.... not taking in the stone chimny, walls etc... sq ft wise it should work... throw in your variables and you need a bigger stove for quick returns... even with the damper that stove needs to run 24/7 to heat up all that mass before you will feel the house warm..
Pipe damper -yes insulate walls/floors yes .... bigger stove of course why not... I believe in bigger is better with wood stoves,.get the largest you can fit... especially if you are in a cold/colder climate

 

[elmoleaf]

You might first consider getting an infrared thermal energy audit. This can pinpoint the deficient points in your house's thermal envelope.
Fixing air leaks at sill plates, at rim joists, at the rough openings around windows behind the trim, etc. and correcting areas of poor insulation will make a significant difference.
Then I'd worry about what size stove and the stove installation details.

 

[StealthFarmer]

Insulation and other house issues aside, I think there is definitely wrong with how my stove is operating.

I do not think my stove is doing what you all seem to refer to as a secondary burn. Judging by how my Regency insert looked while it ran in my old house, and by the videos I see here posted here, I am not getting any of that.

If the flames in my stove are roiling like they are in those videos, then my stack temperature will be off the scale and the top of the stove around the collar would be glowing cherry red. Now I can have flames like that, and it only takes about 5 minutes to get them with a fresh load. Beyond that, the only way my stack temp stays below 1000+ degrees is if I have the damper all the off. If I have the firebox loaded nice and full, and the damper shut off, my stack temp will be just under 1000, and as the wood burns away in the next hour or two the stack temperature will continue to drop till I have coals then it goes under 400.

This stove does not work anywhere near as well as my old Regency in my old house. One big log is about all that insert would fit but it burnt longer than say 4 of the same size logs in the super 27. It was the smallest insert Regency made, I forget the model but I had an odd shaped fireplace and it was the only one that would fit there.

Someone here mentioned a pipe damper. Will that help my stove? My neighbour was over, the one with the wood furnace and he thinks that all my heat is going up the chimney and I need a damper installed.

 

[VCBurner]

Insulation and other house issues aside, I think there is definitely wrong with how my stove is operating.

I do not think my stove is doing what you all seem to refer to as a secondary burn.

StealthFarmer,

It doesn't sound like your stove is doing what it should do. However, let's re-iterate:

You main floor is 1000 sq ft. Your basement is another 1000 right?
Your basement is not finished.
You are trying to heat a 2000 sq ft home in Canada.

Am I correct so far?


No matter what stove you got, that is rated to heat 2000 sq ft, it would not be heating that house adequately.
Your weather is just too cold so you need a stove that is bigger or an extremely energy efficient home including the basement (new windows & doors, insulation, etc...)
If you want to heat with wood and aren't looking for a pretty piece of furniture for flame viewing, maybe a furnace would be better.
I love fire gazing, but I often wish I had a caddy furnace to heat the entire house and the hot water.


If you want advice on this particular stove use the search function at the top of the page and punch in Pacific Energy Super 27. You will find various threads on this stove. Find a few members who have this same stove and look them up, by clicking on their profiles and searching all the threads they've been involved in. There's bound to be some valuable information out there already about these stoves. I've search it myself and came up with a lot of good information. This is what I would do to find out info on a particular stove. Posting a thread is good also but there lots of posts already to be dissected.


I'm not familiar with your stove but having consistent temps over 1000 in your flue pipe doesn't soud normal to me. You should never have any part of any stove glowing red, at any time! This is a sign of an overfire. It could be an air leak somewhere, did all the doors with gaskets pass the dollar bill test? Are all the door latches tight? Sometimes even if the stove is brand new one of these may have been overlooked. Light an insence and go around the doors, if the smoke gets sucked into one of the doors you know it is letting in air. Check the air intakes to make sure they are all set correctly. If they are shut are they all the way shut? Read the manual from front to back then do it again. You should be able to figure out if the stove is operating correctly then.


Another important factor in this equation could be your particular chimney. From what you said about the previous stove, it was certainly glowing red quite often. Maybe the chimney is one that induces too much draft! Too much draft would certainly make a stove overfire even if it is all air tight and perfectly functional. In this case a pipe damper could prove to be the easiest way to solve the overfire problem.

Can you tell us details about your particular set up?
Chimney height
Chimney type
Exact fotage of basement and upper floor

 

[StealthFarmer]

I understand that part about needing either more stove or insulating the basement. It has been made pretty clear.

At this point I am more concerned with my house burning down or damaging the stove. I have what I have and there is nothing I will be able to do about it until spring. So I have to see what I can do about running what I have as safely and as effectively as I can. I can use oil or electric to supplement it. I'm not happy about it but I have no intention of overfiring the stove intentionally. I can afford the oil.

The chimney is a selkirk insulated chimney. I don't know the exact model because it was here when I got here. It uses bands to lock the sections together and it is about 20 feet high give or take a foot. It has a double walled pipe leading up to the chimney itself from the stove. The stove collar is offset by about 4 inches to the chimney using 2-45 degree connectors in order to give it proper clearance to the stairs which are directly behind the stove.

The square footage top on each floor including basement is about 1120. The upstairs temps are 21.5 in the living room and kitchen and 18 in the bedroom/bathroom at the back of the house. It is currently -7C outside. I have followed some others advise and place fans in cold bedroom and at the top of stairs. Bringing the cold air out and downstairs. It is working and circulating the air much better. I also cut a new grate in the floor to allow heat upstairs. I closed off two rooms I am not using. Overall it is working well now and I am not overfiring the stove.

I did the incense test and there is no air getting in around the door, window or ash drop.

 

[Renovation]

There are many ways to insulate the floor, none are cheap. Here are some of the ways you can do this:
[snip]

Wow, nice of you to take the time for such a thoughtful, helpful post! :coolsmile:

A new alternative, which appeals to me, is hollow plastic tiles, an inch or so thick, that hook together at the edges. They insulate, and keep whatever flooring you put on top--like a rug--dry and above the water, and allow the water to flow freely into the sump etc. An old-school version of that is pea gravel with plastic sheeting on top, then a layer of plywood.

HTH whoever's interested.