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New Tax on hybrid cars

Post in 'The Green Room' started by Seasoned Oak, Apr 29, 2013.

  1. Seasoned Oak

    Seasoned Oak Minister of Fire

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    I think a much better way of funding road work would be to impose an import tax on imported oil.that way oil companies would be incentivized to produce and sell domestically produced oil that had NO TAX.
    ALso i dont think they should put any new taxes on electric cars as long as they still subsidize oil, still import oil and until electric cars reached a certain market share like 25% or more.
    http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2013/04/28/hybrid-taxes-gas-tax-highway-funding/2110297/

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  2. EatenByLimestone

    EatenByLimestone Minister of Fire

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    How about taxing tires instead of gas? If you drive more, you wear out your tires faster. If you drive aggressively you wear your tires out faster. You can buy tires that will last an extremely long time, but there are trade offs in the performance of the tires. The obvious downside of this is you would be looking at $1000 for a tire.

    Hybrids and electric cars do use the road. I see no reason why they shouldn't be required to help pay for the building and maintenance of them.

    Matt
  3. Seasoned Oak

    Seasoned Oak Minister of Fire

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    The big picture is getting away from a single energy source for transportation,much more important than making hybrid owners "pay the freight" at least for now with alternative propulsion in its infancy and barely cost effective on startup.
    scooby074 likes this.
  4. semipro

    semipro Minister of Fire

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    Interesting idea, I kind of like it. You're right though. It would probably create a heck of a market for used or illicit tires since the cost for new ones would be so high.
    Unintended consequence would be diminished safety though as folks try to get every last mile out of worn tires.

    Agreed, just not more than the other non-hybrid vehicles as is now the case in VA where I live (and drive a hybrid).

    Ultimately, road fees should be based on mileage driven and vehicle weight.
  5. Seasoned Oak

    Seasoned Oak Minister of Fire

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    Bingo, vehicle weight does more road damage than any other factor other than miles+weight. Large trucks do the most road damage by far over any other type of vehicle. THey do also pay very high license fees.
  6. Joful

    Joful Minister of Fire

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    It never ceases to amaze me... people talk endlessly about government waste and overspending in general terms, but every time a specific example arises, they talk about what new thing we should tax.

    How about finding a way to build roads for less? If you cut the average crew of five down to the one guy who's actually working, and eliminate the four standing there watching him, you'd have an overnight direct labor savings of 80%. No new tax needed.
    firebroad likes this.
  7. lukem

    lukem Minister of Fire

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    I believe the "tire lobby" in DC is pretty strong, believe it or not. Tire tax would never fly even if it was a good idea.

    Taxing hybrids sounds like an even worse idea.

    I'm with Joful. It wasn't that long ago I watched a state highway "crew" remove a single standing dead tree from a roadside. They rolled up with no less than 6 guys in two gigantic trucks. It took them 6 hours for what amounted to simple chop and drop. Not bragging here, but I could have easily done the job in an hour by myself and hauled it off in a Ford Ranger. Instead they used probably $1,000 in labor and burned $100 in diesel. There's an amazing amount of gov't waste out there.
    MishMouse and zap like this.
  8. semipro

    semipro Minister of Fire

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    In my case anyway, I wasn't talking about a "new" tax, I was talking about one to replace the existing "at the pump" tax though I didn't explain that.
  9. firebroad

    firebroad Minister of Fire

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    But are you sure they were State Employees, and not untrained prisoners? In my state we use a lot of those guys. And it would be cost effective, if you don't take into consideration that you are not giving the job to a tree expert...
  10. firebroad

    firebroad Minister of Fire

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    ...But you know, why don't they just quit taxing the $#!t out of the people and learn to economize like the rest of us?;)
    NickDL likes this.
  11. lukem

    lukem Minister of Fire

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    Definitely state employees. Prisoners are in orange jumpsuits, even if they are on a work release program.

    1 guy to run the saw. 1 guy to put wood in the truck. 1 guy to supervise saw operator. I guy to supervise wood loader. A driver for each truck...that's 6. Sounds right.
    firebroad likes this.
  12. firebroad

    firebroad Minister of Fire

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    Yep, that's State Employee procedure. Segregation of duties. :p
  13. EatenByLimestone

    EatenByLimestone Minister of Fire

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    I'm not convinced that large trucks automatically do more damage. It would seem to me that the damage would related to the weight spread out on the individual contact patches of the tire. The size and amount of the contact patches would determine the damage. The small car may weigh much less, but have fewer square inches of tire touching the pavement to spread the weight out. A larger vehicle may have more square inches of tire touching the ground therefore any square inch may have fewer pounds of pressure on it. A Prius weighs much less than a dually, but the dually has larger tires and 6 of them to help distribute the weight.

    Does anybody care to make measurements of the contact patches of a dually and a Prius to test this? Does anybody drive a Peterbuilt that we can measure the contact patches just for giggles?
  14. EatenByLimestone

    EatenByLimestone Minister of Fire

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    I'm not the one whining about the extra charge for hybrids. Tough roads will take those hybrids off the road long before many other vehicles are taken out by them.

    I'm offering an alternative way to raise the revenue needed to fix the roads.

    I thought we were trying to think outside the box on this board.
  15. semipro

    semipro Minister of Fire

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    The one that kills me is the one sitting in the truck watching everyone else work with his/her motor running and the AC/heat on.
  16. semipro

    semipro Minister of Fire

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    I agree but didn't want to get lost in the "weight" versus "force per area" details in my post. Suffice it to say that factors other than just mileage impact road wear.
  17. peakbagger

    peakbagger Minister of Fire

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    Most folks dont know it but every barrel of foreign oil has a "tax" called a RIN on it that goes in a fund to subsidize renewable liquid fuels for transportation. Unfortunately no company has figured out a way of making renewable fuel competitive even with subsidies. To date several companies have faked it and got lots of money out of the fund (and also got caught)

    http://gas2.org/2013/03/11/clean-fuels-lead-to-dirty-money-fraud/

    In New Zealand they pay high gas taxes plus and cost per mile driven. The odometers are checked when the cars are inspected yearly.
  18. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    WA state is already proposing an excise (license) tax on hybrids and electrics.
  19. Joful

    Joful Minister of Fire

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    I am, too: reduce waste and spending.

    At this point, in our country, my statement is "out of the box."
  20. Seasoned Oak

    Seasoned Oak Minister of Fire

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    No argument on that point. It is proven big trucks do the most road damage. THe truckers know this as well otherwise they would be fighting those very high registration fees they pay.
    Also thats what those weigh stations are for on the interstate,not only to see if the truck is overloaded generally but also to see if there is more than the legal weight on any one tire.
  21. EatenByLimestone

    EatenByLimestone Minister of Fire

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    I don't think they are as worried about road damage as they are about an overloaded truck not being able to stop in a reasonable distance.

    The truckers aren't fighting the registration fees because they are passing the cost on to us. We are happily paying the high registration fees when we buy the goods they are moving. It's kind of like taxing a corporation. They aren't absorbing the cost, they are passing it on to the consumer.
  22. Seasoned Oak

    Seasoned Oak Minister of Fire

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    At the legal weight a large truck exerts over 2 tons per tire on the road ,a typical car about 1/4 that much. Plus large trucks are run almost continuously day and night putting a lot of miles as well.
  23. EatenByLimestone

    EatenByLimestone Minister of Fire

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    Not per tire. That isn't an accurate measurement since tires do not come to a point beneath the vehicle. How many lbs per square inch of contact? There is a flat patch at the bottom of each tire where the weight is spread out. The only way to calculate true road wear is to calculate the weight on the total area.

    For instance, my truck is an '04 Ram 1500. I just measured the contact patch of a front tire at 205X265mm. That's about 8.125" x 10.5" which equals 85.3 square inches. A rear tire's contact patch was 190x165mm... 7.5X10.5 or 78.75 square inches. 157.5 +170.6 = 328.1 square inches to distribute the 6650lbs that DOT says my truck weighs. That's 20.3lbs per square inch.

    I run the max tire pressure of 45psi in my tires to minimize rolling resistance. DOT says I should put only 35psi in my tires. That would increase my contact patch and lower the amount of pounds that my truck puts on each square inch of pavement. Maybe it would move it to 17lbs per square inch or so? Maybe I should deflate my tires and measure it sometime.

    Somebody with a hybrid measure your contact patch and then look at the door sticker to find the weight. I'd be interested to see how many pounds per square inch one of them puts down. Since hybrids are set up for decreased rolling resistance and have small tires I'd bet that it's more pounds per square inch than one would think.


    Matt
  24. EatenByLimestone

    EatenByLimestone Minister of Fire

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    Ok, I had to go to Lowes and pick up bean seeds for the garden. There is a Toyota dealership around the corner from Lowes so I stopped in and confused the salesman there.

    A 2010 Prius weighs 3980 lbs! Those batteries must be heavy! It runs on 195/65/R15s and the front has a contact patch of 150X195. 6"x 7.75" = 46.5 sq inches. Double that gives you 93 sq inches. The back has a contact patch of 110X195. 4.25X7.75= 32.9 sq in. Doubling it gives 65.875 sq inches. Adding the total square inches for front and back gives us 158.875 sq inches. 3980/158.875 =25.05 lbs per square inch.







    That 2010 Prius puts more wear on the road than my full size truck!


    I checked a 2013 Prius' footprint also. The door was locked so I couldn't check the weight, but the tires were the same size. From the factory the front had a contact patch of 120X195. The back had 170X195. They moved a lot of weight to the back! Maybe a full gas tank? Ok, assuming the same weight on the door tag these are the numbers I get. (Due to the difference in the contact patches there is either a big difference in the tire's sidewall stiffness or the car weighs more.) Front: 4.5*7.75*2=69.75 sq inches. Rear: 6.75*7.75*2= 104.625 square inches. This will give us 174.375 square inches of contact patch. 3980/174.375=22.824 lbs per square inch.




    Both vehicles put more wear on the road than my truck. I'd like to see more hybrids.


    I drive a Toyota Yaris for/at work. It's a POS, but it might be interesting to see how the weight is distributed. It would be interesting to see how a small car that doesn't have 2 propulsion systems in it fares. I'll report back tomorrow on it.


    Matt
  25. semipro

    semipro Minister of Fire

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    Way to go Matt. I love the inquisitive, hands-on, confusing-the-saleman approach.

    So let's take a fully loaded 18 wheeler. If we assume the contact patch area is 100 in^2 per wheel with 18 wheels and a load of 80,000 lb. then you get about 45 lb/in^ or over twice the area loading of your Ram truck. The big question there is the assumption of the contact patch size and that weight is distributed equally among wheels.

    I was thinking the same as you that it all came down to load per area. Then I started suspecting it might be more complex than that and might go as deep as geo-technical issues having to do with load distribution and road bed construction.
    I spent a little time looking around and came across at least one credible reference indicating that attribution of road damage is more complex than that. Check out http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/policy/091116/03.htm

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