Newbie needs help with non-flush wood insert

[kennyp2339]

So if you know what the construction is and you know how to remove the bricks without changing the R value then you can alter the fireplace, because the guys who installed my liner jackhammered a few bricks to install it.

I also wonder how you can tell if the brickwork has wood studs behind it, like my hearth, is that solid bricks or bricks over framing.
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Your hearth area should be solid brick that is tied back into the main fireplace, the part that was knocked out looks like it was made for the liner, but without physically being there to see and measure I couldn't tell you whether it was safe or not, more than likely its safe since the liner is center down

 

[begreen]

Look underneath in the crawlspace or basement and see what is under the hearth.

 

[begreen]

Its took keep non certified people / liability from dangerously changing the r-value characteristics of the fire place, 8" of solid masonry is needed between the fireplace fire box and anything combustible like wall studs. Plus the inserts are not UL tested for side and rear clearances because they should be installed in a approved masonry fireplace.

Probably need a separate thread, but modifying or removing the damper to clear the liner and carving out a the firebrick to fit an insert is fairly common. Technically there should be a permanent metal sign at the back of the fireplace stating this.

 

[Mark8]

Your hearth area should be solid brick that is tied back into the main fireplace, the part that was knocked out looks like it was made for the liner, but without physically being there to see and measure I couldn't tell you whether it was safe or not, more than likely its safe since the liner is center down

Yes the liner is center down and my house sits on a slab, won't hijack this guys thread, just thought it was a related question to carving out the brick without reducing the R value.
Thanks.

 

[begreen]

The R value is reduced for fireplace operation. And if the fireplace was to be used again for open burning, the firebrick should be repaired. But the insert has a convective jacket which is much cooler than an open fire flame.

 

[Jgaloski]

Just an update:

Have not heard back from the dealer yet, which leads me to believe they have not heard back from the installer. Not a good look when they only recommend 2 installers. I'm sure the installer doesn't want to lose that direct line of business though. It's also the weekend, and not everyone is as crazy as I am. Haha

 

[Mark8]

Just an update:

Have not heard back from the dealer yet, which leads me to believe they have not heard back from the installer. Not a good look when they only recommend 2 installers. I'm sure the installer doesn't want to lose that direct line of business though. It's also the weekend, and not everyone is as crazy as I am. Haha

Just my opinion from my own personal experiences in California, your state might be different, out here there is usually only one fireplace dealer 100 miles apart, or one in each city if that, and that equates to a monopoly, no competition to worry about so customer service after the sale is not the biggest priority. I guess we will find out how your treated in your state.

I personally would ask the dealer to visit your residence and address this matter, and let the responsibility fall on his shoulders, not the installers, he made the commission on the sale and needs to stand behind the sale. If he sold you an insert that won't fit it's his problem for not being involved with the measuring or visiting the residence. The problem with dealers using sub contractors is that your now dealing with two separate companies and now they get to point fingers at one another.

Hope it all gets resolved and you get the look you want.

 

[begreen]

Yes the liner is center down and my house sits on a slab, won't hijack this guys thread, just thought it was a related question to carving out the brick without reducing the R value.
Thanks.

The warning inset does seem to be written by a lawyer with little or no knowledge of installation issues. I've asked BKVP to explain why this confusing message is in their manuals.

"Do not make any changes or modifications to an existing masonry fireplace or chimney to install this appliance. "

Tell me how an installer puts in an insulated 6" liner in a 7x11 chimney without breaking out the tiles. Or how he installs a liner through a 4" damper opening without cutting or removing the damper.

 

[Jgaloski]

Just my opinion from my own personal experiences in California, your state might be different, out here there is usually only one fireplace dealer 100 miles apart, or one in each city if that, and that equates to a monopoly, no competition to worry about so customer service after the sale is not the biggest priority. I guess we will find out how your treated in your state.

I personally would ask the dealer to visit your residence and address this matter, and let the responsibility fall on his shoulders, not the installers, he made the commission on the sale and needs to stand behind the sale. If he sold you an insert that won't fit it's his problem for not being involved with the measuring or visiting the residence. The problem with dealers using sub contractors is that your now dealing with two separate companies and now they get to point fingers at one another.

Hope it all gets resolved and you get the look you want.

I'm fine with paying to have the units exchanged on an installer's front. They would be doing additional work. My biggest concern is having the dealer actually come through with a swap to a unit that will fit. We have burned twice in the current unit. I hope that doesn't impact anything.

 

[Jgaloski]

Been reading a lot over the past few days and educating myself. Couple of follow up questions:

Can the damper frame and some connected bricks from smoke shelf be removed?

I feel like that would provide the necessary clearance for the unit to push back and sit flush and the liner to still connect.

 

[Mark8]

Been reading a lot over the past few days and educating myself. Couple of follow up questions:

Can the damper frame and some connected bricks from smoke shelf be removed?

I feel like that would provide the necessary clearance for the unit to push back and sit flush and the liner to still connect.

This is a picture of what my installers removed to get the liner to my insert, they removed the damper frame and some bricks. The question we are all waiting for is how much brick can you remove and grind away to make it fit. You should get your answer soon.

 

[Jgaloski]

Thanks mark. Nobody is waiting for that answer more than myself. I'll keep everyone updated once I get some resolution.

 

[Jgaloski]

New update for those following along.

Had a different installer come and take a look today. So many things wrong. First off they said the liner appeared to be pieced together. There is no insulation around it. On top of that there was never a permit pulled. They said that the unit can in fact be pushed back to be flush. It would involve cutting out a piece of the damper and removing some bricks, adding some elbows to the liner connection.

So, first thing I need to do is try and get some retribution from the horrible installer that was suggested by the dealer. Dealer has a really good name/reputation, so I am going to start with them. I figure they will stonewall me, so I will turn to the news after that. On the other end, this new installer gave me the name of someone at the building inspections dept and someone at the licensing department.

It looks like weather is turning here in the Northeast so I don't plan on burning in it until next winter anyways, but could be a long road of trying to get some money back before having a trusted installer handle the installation.

 

[begreen]

Good move getting a decent installer to give you an appraisal. I hope you can recover some of your losses, it sounds like the first installer was an amateur and not certified. Best of luck going forward. Done right you will end up with a safer installation and one that looks right.

 

[Mark8]

The warning inset does seem to be written by a lawyer with little or no knowledge of installation issues. I've asked BKVP to explain why this confusing message is in their manuals.

"Do not make any changes or modifications to an existing masonry fireplace or chimney to install this appliance. "

Tell me how an installer puts in an insulated 6" liner in a 7x11 chimney without breaking out the tiles. Or how he installs a liner through a 4" damper opening without cutting or removing the damper.

Any update on this situation?

 

[begreen]

Any update on this situation?

BK is discussing with their safety experts. I wouldn't expect any doc changes before the next printing. That could be awhile.

 

[Jgaloski]

Anyone here have any experience using an offset adaptor? Hearing that might be a possible solution

 

[bholler]

Anyone here have any experience using an offset adaptor? Hearing that might be a possible solution

It is a solution but not a good one.

 

[Jgaloski]

It is a solution but not a good one.

Would 90 elbows be a more trusted solution? What is the negative to offset boxes?

 

[bholler]

Would 90 elbows be a more trusted solution? What is the negative to offset boxes?

Yes 90s w ould be better but still not great. Offset boxes rea lly hurt draft and are a pain to clean.

 

[Woody Stover]

Tell me how an installer puts in an insulated 6" liner in a 7x11 chimney without breaking out the tiles. Or how he installs a liner through a 4" damper opening without cutting or removing the damper.

Or goes straight up off the stove and turns into the chimney with a thimble..

 

[Jgaloski]

Update: If anyone is still interested in an update. I've got a new company here today to correct the horrible install that was previously done. They discovered that the liner was pieced together and not even pieced together correctly. They have demo'd the back wall and the insert should now be able to fit in flush, like it was intended to do. Reassuring to go with a good company, but kicking myself for not having gone through them in the first place. I'll include some pictures later in the process.

 

[begreen]

Thanks for the update. Sorry for the hassle, but I'm glad you have a safer and better looking install now.