Newbie

[Spuddaddy]

Hello
I am a newbie here....
I apologize for my stupidity upfront......

I am looking to get away from my dependency on oil......
I have a ~2300 square foot two story house in central Pennsylvania...
Hot water baseboard......currently insufficient heat runs(plan to correct after replacing furnace)
also use oil to heat domestic hot water(DHW)
There are 6 of us....wife and 4 boys...
The oldest is gone all but visits....Citadel (grad and Army contract in May)
2nd is in college but home on weekends and for the summer
The other four of us are full time.....

Have a 18000 gallon above ground pool that I may like to warm up in the spring and fall....?????

I am looking for any input....
I do not have a outside access to my basement.....

I am thinking of a OWB....
Empyre 200 (If I can ever get them to call me)
Econoburn
60-70 feet from the house...


I would be interested in any input.......

Thanks

 

[barkeatr]

Fritz Florian Alternative Energy Solutions will return your call..google him they are out of mid to southern NY. He dropped off my Empyre Pro on Saturday. Im on my second OWB install. my first was a central boiler. The central boiler paid for itself a few times but long story short be very carefull about your pipe line size. Dont go less than Inner diameter one inch. Your Pipe install needs high level of care, as one degree heat loss each way turns into large amounts of wood. Check out this forum for some discussion on line loss. http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,48429.0.html and of course the folks in this forum are very helpful.

welcome and good luck.

 

[Nofossil]

A true gasifier (like the Econoburn) will use a LOT less wood than a traditional OWB and produce almost no smoke or fumes - worth taking a close look. They do require dry wood so planning ahead is important. Read the sticky on underground lines.

Storage is not necessary but adds a great deal of convenience and can improve efficiency. Lots of good information here.

 

[Spuddaddy]

Just added the
Heatmor 200CSS to the mix.....

 

[Nofossil]

As you're looking at options, it's important to be clear: there are two very different types of boiler in your list.

The Econoburn is a downdraft gasifier - a very sophisticated, efficient, and clean-burning technology. If fed with dry wood, it will deliver an entirely different level of performance and efficiency than the others you've mentioned. The Econoburn isn't the only gasifier out there, but it's one of the few (maybe the only one) that's available in an outdoor model.

The other boilers appear to be traditional OWBs. They're effectively banned in many places, and under a lot of scrutiny in others. Unless operated carefully with high quality wood, they can create enormous amounts of noxious smoke. Even under the best conditions, they still consume far more wood than gasifiers.

If you haven't already done so, search on 'gasifier' and learn more about the differences. Many people here started with an OWB and made the switch to a gasifier. I think it's safe to say that there's no going back.

See one in action if possible.

 

[Spuddaddy]

As you're looking at options, it's important to be clear: there are two very different types of boiler in your list.

The Econoburn is a downdraft gasifier - a very sophisticated, efficient, and clean-burning technology. If fed with dry wood, it will deliver an entirely different level of performance and efficiency than the others you've mentioned. The Econoburn isn't the only gasifier out there, but it's one of the few (maybe the only one) that's available in an outdoor model.

The other boilers appear to be traditional OWBs. They're effectively banned in many places, and under a lot of scrutiny in others. Unless operated carefully with high quality wood, they can create enormous amounts of noxious smoke. Even under the best conditions, they still consume far more wood than gasifiers.

If you haven't already done so, search on 'gasifier' and learn more about the differences. Many people here started with an OWB and made the switch to a gasifier. I think it's safe to say that there's no going back.

See one in action if possible.

I am fairly new to the alternate heating research....
I am open to all criticism....constructive and otherwise...

I started this "journey" 2 months ago due to a ~40 year old oil furnace needing to be replaced.... I found what I thought was the most efficient (total efficiency.....not AFUE after my research I believe them to be completely different) oil boiler.
But even at 88% total efficiency I would still end up paying $3000 a year to heat my house and domestic hot water.....I have a good job(I am NOT independently wealthy) so my wife and I decided to start looking for freedom from fossil fuels...
I have fairly good access to reasonably priced wood.... several neighbors have OWBs....they love them.
As I stated before I do not have a outside entrance to my basement...making an inside wood boiler difficult....
I have considered the HArmon PB105 pellet boiler....but then I am tied to someone elses prices for fuel.....and pellets have increased significantly in the past 2-3 years....

I love the technology behind the gasifiers.....I think the indoor market the technology seems to be quite well proven...not so much for the outdoor market....

 

[guy01]

Many people put the indoor boiler in a outbuilding which also keeps the mess out of the house
Guy

 

[Spuddaddy]

Many people put the indoor boiler in a outbuilding which also keeps the mess out of the house
Guy

Any suggestions Guy??

 

[Spuddaddy]

Many people put the indoor boiler in a outbuilding which also keeps the mess out of the house
Guy

Any suggestions Guy??

Sorry ...as to the boiler...

Think I can figure the shed part out....

 

[guy01]

I still havn't picked a boiler for myself and there are quite a few options .Check the banner adds and the Empyre pro series looks nice(I don't think you'll find them in the banner adds)
Guy

 

[flyingcow]

I used these figures when i planned my unit.

OWB: 1 cord of wood= 100 gals of oil.
Gasser: 1 cord of wood=150/175 gals of oil

I used to burn 1000 gals of oil. I now use 6 1/2 cords of well seasoned wood. And I keep the T-stat turned a few degrees higher.

And there is no smoke. Low ash, etc.

 

[Spuddaddy]

I used these figures when i planned my unit.

OWB: 1 cord of wood= 100 gals of oil.
Gasser: 1 cord of wood=150/175 gals of oil

I used to burn 1000 gals of oil. I now use 6 1/2 cords of well seasoned wood. And I keep the T-stat turned a few degrees higher.

And there is no smoke. Low ash, etc.

That's great info.... Flyingcow.....THe name made me chuckle....thanks for both

Do you think your Tarm Solo would work in a 3 sided shed??????????????????????

 

[flyingcow]

I used these figures when i planned my unit.

OWB: 1 cord of wood= 100 gals of oil.
Gasser: 1 cord of wood=150/175 gals of oil

I used to burn 1000 gals of oil. I now use 6 1/2 cords of well seasoned wood. And I keep the T-stat turned a few degrees higher.

And there is no smoke. Low ash, etc.

That's great info.... Flyingcow.....THe name made me chuckle....thanks for both

Do you think your Tarm Solo would work in a 3 sided shed??????????????????????

Any indoor unit should be in an insulated building. IMO.

Check out the Econoburn, they have one that is made for outdoor use.

 

[Tennman]

You'll see some of us here with the BioMass boiler. I'm extremely pleased. Econoburn owners seem to be happy here. Ours is an indoor boiler that is in an outbuilding. There's two camps as you do you're research here. This is an instance where both camps are right. Putting an indoor boiler in your basement is the most efficient since any escaped energy remains in the house. Putting an indoor boiler in an outbuilding and using underground lines has the advantage of any mess/smoke being outside the house with a small price in efficiency. I'm willing to sacrifice efficiency for cleanliness. Others who live where it's much colder are not. You'll find this site a godsend as you go forward. Great bunch of boiler geeks here. I was born in Altoona.

 

[barkeatr]

Just to be clear, The Empyre Pro 200 is a downdraft gassification unit, and it is designed to be used outside with no enclosure, but it is ALSO UL listed to be used inside.

As you're looking at options, it's important to be clear: there are two very different types of boiler in your list.

The other boilers appear to be traditional OWBs. They're effectively banned in many places, and under a lot of scrutiny in others. Unless operated carefully with high quality wood, they can create enormous amounts of noxious smoke. Even under the best conditions, they still consume far more wood than gasifiers.

If you haven't already done so, search on 'gasifier' and learn more about the differences. Many people here started with an OWB and made the switch to a gasifier. I think it's safe to say that there's no going back.

See one in action if possible.

 

[Spuddaddy]

Just to be clear, The Empyre Pro 200 is a downdraft gassification unit, and it is designed to be used outside with no enclosure, but it is ALSO UL listed to be used inside.

As you're looking at options, it's important to be clear: there are two very different types of boiler in your list.

The other boilers appear to be traditional OWBs. They're effectively banned in many places, and under a lot of scrutiny in others. Unless operated carefully with high quality wood, they can create enormous amounts of noxious smoke. Even under the best conditions, they still consume far more wood than gasifiers.

If you haven't already done so, search on 'gasifier' and learn more about the differences. Many people here started with an OWB and made the switch to a gasifier. I think it's safe to say that there's no going back.

See one in action if possible.

barkeatr...do you have experience with the Empyre 200????

 

[guy01]

do a search there was a thread once with pics and it's beautifull

 

[heaterman]

A few thoughts......after having helped literally hundreds of people with OWB's, indoor gassers and Garns in all kinds of configurations........

Without fail, the people that are the most "in love" with their wood burner are the ones that have it installed in a building that is remote from the house. Keeps the bugs, bark, dirt, smoke and muddy footprints outside where they belong. Also and maybe more importantly, it keeps the WAF (wife approval factor) very high.

Around here there are a couple Amish guys that make small "yard barns" or storage buildings. Cheap. One of those, or something like it, to house your boiler and wood supply is the absolute berries. You will break your arm patting yourself on the back for making that investment the first time you go out to fire the boiler with a stout wind blowing and the temp near zero.
A couple of my customers have turned the boiler building into their personal "man cave" and posted "He man woman haters club" signs over the door. A plus to that type of structure, at least here, is that being mounted on a skid it is not considered taxable property.

AFA a gasser vs OWB goes.......I am firmly in the gasser camp........IF.....I said IFFFF......you can discipline yourself to procure a couple years worth of wood ahead and get it seasoned up. The huge advantage in the efficiency of a gasification boiler is only available to you if you are burning wood with 25% moisture content or less. If you do not anticipate getting ahead of the curve on your wood supply then go with an OWB because at that point your overall efficiency is going to be about the same. Plus you'll have more hassle with the gasification unit. Attempting to burn uncured wood in a gasser makes about as much sense as running diesel in a gasoline engine.



Other stuff:
It's tough to make piping recommendations without any details but I would suggest a separate line for the house and the pool heater.

Do yourself a favor and get a heat loss calculation done on your house. Without knowing your actual load, you're just guessing at pump size, pipe/tubing size, and a host of other things that have a bearing on how well your system works and how well you like it after 2 or 3 years of operation.

 

[Duetech]

I might be biased but I think you show a certain lack of stupidity. After all you are here asking questions so there is no need to apologize. I had an EKO40 in my garage for 4 years but insurance companies can be influential in changing locations. I recommend you take a serious look at gasifier boilers even in the "do it in over time mode" department as some are trying to clear over wintered inventories (save much mula). But don't jump just because of the season. Be deliberate and be informed. Get a heat analysis of your need done to establish brackets of your needs. As stated above I had to quit using my EKO until I could get it into it's own shed so I am temporarily using an OWB. It does the job but has used about twice the wood (much more labor and at high wood prices it would be self defeating) this winter and the heating season is not over. To help establish your list of overwhelming data here is a link for a gasifier that looks like an OWB.
http://www.portageandmainboilers.com/gasification.html
My only concern with a unit this big is the load capacity seems astronomical. I ran my unit without storage and averaged 10 hours on a load/burn. Burn time can be critical without storage (don't want the boiler/home going cold while you are away). As a point some insurances require you to have a second source of heat to prevent you making a claim due to frozen pipes etc. As mentioned above you are not stupid for coming to this forum but after you have been here awhile you will see it is just a matter of underexposed. That has begun to change...Welcome aboard...

 

[Spuddaddy]

A few thoughts......after having helped literally hundreds of people with OWB's, indoor gassers and Garns in all kinds of configurations........

Without fail, the people that are the most "in love" with their wood burner are the ones that have it installed in a building that is remote from the house. Keeps the bugs, bark, dirt, smoke and muddy footprints outside where they belong. Also and maybe more importantly, it keeps the WAF (wife approval factor) very high.

Around here there are a couple Amish guys that make small "yard barns" or storage buildings. Cheap. One of those, or something like it, to house your boiler and wood supply is the absolute berries. You will break your arm patting yourself on the back for making that investment the first time you go out to fire the boiler with a stout wind blowing and the temp near zero.
A couple of my customers have turned the boiler building into their personal "man cave" and posted "He man woman haters club" signs over the door. A plus to that type of structure, at least here, is that being mounted on a skid it is not considered taxable property.

AFA a gasser vs OWB goes.......I am firmly in the gasser camp........IF.....I said IFFFF......you can discipline yourself to procure a couple years worth of wood ahead and get it seasoned up. The huge advantage in the efficiency of a gasification boiler is only available to you if you are burning wood with 25% moisture content or less. If you do not anticipate getting ahead of the curve on your wood supply then go with an OWB because at that point your overall efficiency is going to be about the same. Plus you'll have more hassle with the gasification unit. Attempting to burn uncured wood in a gasser makes about as much sense as running diesel in a gasoline engine.



Other stuff:
It's tough to make piping recommendations without any details but I would suggest a separate line for the house and the pool heater.

Do yourself a favor and get a heat loss calculation done on your house. Without knowing your actual load, you're just guessing at pump size, pipe/tubing size, and a host of other things that have a bearing on how well your system works and how well you like it after 2 or 3 years of operation.

Thanks heaterman

I've had 4 different contractors in so far ...for oil and for OWB....
The load they figured out just for the house was 95000 btu
The pool is 18000 gallons above ground 27'


The last guy that was in was the Heatmor dealer.....local guy....everyone loves him...and I have spoken to at least 20 of his customers personally.
He left a really good impression on the wife too.........(some of you know what that is worth)

I am trying to set up a visit to a Empyre Pro 200 tomorrow....
I have yet to see one in person....
Just not sure about the maturity of the gasifier technology.....

 

[guy01]

I finally found that thread it was the indoor version
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/59130/

 

[barkeatr]

i JUST bought an Empyer 200 after doing some research with folks that have them on this forum. I had a Central Boiler for six years prior to that. I log my own wood out of the woods, for the most part. Empyer seems like a good unit, but I can update you more later this week after I fire it up. Firecaptain has had one two seasons and is happy with 12 plus hour burns and so forth. It is a bit less expensive than the econoburn. Construction quality is ok, a bit on the homemade side. Its a non pressureized unit, which is quite different than a pressurized one.

 

[mapratt]

For what it's worth, Central Boiler has a gasification line now.

But I'm going for indoors - no interest in standing out in driving weather of whatever form, loading wood.

No wife to worry about here :kiss:

 

[Duetech]

As far as gasifier maturity there is little that is appreciated about gasification. In WW2 vehicles were reconfigured to run on wood/carcoal because fuel was a rare commodity in europe. Prior to the industrial age wood gas was an up and coming source of energy for eurpean cities as large aas London England. Beware of the sales picth that the technology is not that developed in this country. Our exposure is small compared to that in europe but some of the models available in europe have some very sophisticated computer controllers. The unfortunate end of it here is we think like we were just filling a wood stove and any old piece of wood will do. As stated above "if you anre not going to put in a wood supply a year or two in advance them maybe you should put in an OWB. The technology is there but we need to catch uup to it.

 

[Whitepine2]

Check out the Portage & Main can be operated outside or in outside shed. I checked on gassers for 3 Mo. and have got a P & M comeing I think it will fill my needs just fine have talked with owners and all liked them. I have a Mohoning for 6 yrs was good but wood destroyer I think I will love the P & M from what I know of it. Heck I don't have it and allready like it.