OK SO NOW THE FUN BEGINS.

[infinitymike]

I had my HVAC sub contractor over tonight to look at the wood gun and give a price to install it.

We are talking about the burner and he is looking it over. We are discussing the options of hooking it in series or parallel with the existing oil burner.

THEN we go into the basement and he sees my oil burner. There's silence, then he says "are you kidding me this is a piece of junk that is original to the house (1951)
you HAVE TO RIP THIS OUT. The wood gun is a multi fuel burner so I have the option of buying there oil gun and burn chamber.

He thinks it would be smarter money spent to set it up with the oil, buy a new oil tank, get all new circulators and controls (basically like I was doing a brand new job without piping the heat lines), then if I were to try and tie into the existing boiler either in series or parallel. He says this thing is a wreck, everything is leaking, the circulators are ancient and its just a really old steel boiler that wont last much longer.

I can buy the oil option from AHS for around 2k. I dont think it needs to be factory installed, or at least I'm hoping it doesn't. Its just a bolt on the side unit and a new control wiring box. My guy didn't have a real #, but a ball park with parts and labor was around 5k. That would be a new 275 gal oil tank, a new 100 gal electric water heater, all new circ pumps and controls, new ss smokepipe, all piping and misc stuff plus his labor to tie into my existing heat loops plus break my main floor and basement from one zone into 3 zones.

Whats your opinion? Would I be spending about 4 or 5k if I was hooking into my old system, so I am really only 1 or 2k deeper.

This kinda took me by surprise. I wasn't expecting it to be so high. Being a contractor I usually tend to estimate everyone else's work cheaper and mine a little higher . So maybe I right where I should be.

What to do, what to do!

Any comments?

 

[Gasifier]

infinitymike,

How the hell are man? That is what my wife calls (and makes fun of me), "Spending money to save money." Then she smiles. But she will be smiling everytime I remind her we do not have to order oil this month as well.

My setup has an indirect hot water heater. It is a tank inside of a tank system. S.S. tank inside of a carbon steel tank. It is on a zone by itself. So, my oil boiler heats my hot water. But now my wood boiler heats my hot water and the oil boiler has gone cold. And will be staying that way unless I need it to kick in when I am away for whatever reason.

Now. You could add the oil burner to the wood gun and be down to one unit. That would be nice. The oil burner on the Wood Gun will not be that efficient. But if you can keep the wood burner going most of the time, it will not burn that much oil. They are easy to operate. So between you and another family member, maybe the wife, you could cut down on how much you would burn. But, the electric hot water heater would be more convenient for you if you are busy and away alot. Depends on your circumstances.

I spent $3700 having mine installed. I got the boiler and tank into position, they did everything else. That price included all the pumps, aquastats, copper pipeing, copper fittings, (good God is copper some money), and their labor. The copper was expensive, but it saved in labor time because they used compression fittings. Very cool and fast. And that was for 1-1/2 inch piping.

If you can get down to one unit, wood/oil combo, that may be best. You need to have some kind of backup with the wood burner. There will be time after time you will need it. If you have someone home often enough, the ability to heat your domestic hot water with wood as well is nice. Just depends how much you want to be checking the boiler to depend on that for hot showers, dishwater, etc. But your oil will kick in if you need it. Or your electric. Something for you to think about.

Let us know what you are thinking.

 

[bpirger]

How does the oil burner attach to heat the water? Will it be subject to any ash from the wood at all, or is it in its completely separate chamber? And how confident are you that you will always be burning wood? Have you been burning wood in the past or are you new to it? many people find it to be too much work and walk away I believe....so if this is possible, think harder about the combo. My guess is you could buy a rather efficient oil boiler for about the same 2K....but maybe that is wrong. I think my Buderus was about that...and it is very efficient.

I wouldn't want the oil burner anywhere near exposure to ash and the mess of wood, as it would certainly help it to fail.

You said an electric hot water heater....are you planning to always use electric for DHW? You can buy an indirect tank for less than $1K I'm sure....and then you can heat DHW with wood (or oil)....but would have to use one or the other.

The one thing I find with my Garn is that I can use it to heat the house readily down to a 120-125 temp. BUt it becomes hard (very slow) to heat DHW when the temps get to this. Sometimes in the winter the Garn will be getting cool by the AM and if there is a demand for DHW, it would be nice to either kick on the oil boiler, or better yet, have an instantaneous electric boiler to bring the DHW up to the desired 120 or so. That way I don't have to either start a fire in the Garn at 6AM when people in the house want hot water, or burn oil. It wouldn't take much electricty for the little boost in a small instant heater.... All that said, we went through last winter without any problems....no cold showers in the AM, no oil burnt, and no electric instant heater.

It would be nice to have it all together and that guarantees your freeze protection for the woodgun, as it is all in a single unit. Of course, that assumes the oil burner will kick on and fire if it is dirty from the wood ash....

Is there any chance you may move in the near future?

 

[Singed Eyebrows]

I had my HVAC sub contractor over tonight to look at the wood gun and give a price to install it.

We are talking about the burner and he is looking it over. We are discussing the options of hooking it in series or parallel with the existing oil burner.

THEN we go into the basement and he sees my oil burner. There's silence, then he says "are you kidding me this is a piece of junk that is original to the house (1951)
you HAVE TO RIP THIS OUT. The wood gun is a multi fuel burner so I have the option of buying there oil gun and burn chamber.

He thinks it would be smarter money spent to set it up with the oil, buy a new oil tank, get all new circulators and controls (basically like I was doing a brand new job without piping the heat lines), then if I were to try and tie into the existing boiler either in series or parallel. He says this thing is a wreck, everything is leaking, the circulators are ancient and its just a really old steel boiler that wont last much longer.

I can buy the oil option from AHS for around 2k. I dont think it needs to be factory installed, or at least I'm hoping it doesn't. Its just a bolt on the side unit and a new control wiring box. My guy didn't have a real #, but a ball park with parts and labor was around 5k. That would be a new 275 gal oil tank, a new 100 gal electric water heater, all new circ pumps and controls, new ss smokepipe, all piping and misc stuff plus his labor to tie into my existing heat loops plus break my main floor and basement from one zone into 3 zones.

Whats your opinion? Would I be spending about 4 or 5k if I was hooking into my old system, so I am really only 1 or 2k deeper.

This kinda took me by surprise. I wasn't expecting it to be so high. Being a contractor I usually tend to estimate everyone else's work cheaper and mine a little higher . So maybe I right where I should be.

What to do, what to do!

Any comments?

I'd buy a good used oil boiler & be done with it. Thats what I would do, Randy

 

[Fred61]

I had my HVAC sub contractor over tonight to look at the wood gun and give a price to install it.

We are talking about the burner and he is looking it over. We are discussing the options of hooking it in series or parallel with the existing oil burner.

THEN we go into the basement and he sees my oil burner. There's silence, then he says "are you kidding me this is a piece of junk that is original to the house (1951)
you HAVE TO RIP THIS OUT. The wood gun is a multi fuel burner so I have the option of buying there oil gun and burn chamber.

He thinks it would be smarter money spent to set it up with the oil, buy a new oil tank, get all new circulators and controls (basically like I was doing a brand new job without piping the heat lines), then if I were to try and tie into the existing boiler either in series or parallel. He says this thing is a wreck, everything is leaking, the circulators are ancient and its just a really old steel boiler that wont last much longer.

I can buy the oil option from AHS for around 2k. I dont think it needs to be factory installed, or at least I'm hoping it doesn't. Its just a bolt on the side unit and a new control wiring box. My guy didn't have a real #, but a ball park with parts and labor was around 5k. That would be a new 275 gal oil tank, a new 100 gal electric water heater, all new circ pumps and controls, new ss smokepipe, all piping and misc stuff plus his labor to tie into my existing heat loops plus break my main floor and basement from one zone into 3 zones.

Whats your opinion? Would I be spending about 4 or 5k if I was hooking into my old system, so I am really only 1 or 2k deeper.

This kinda took me by surprise. I wasn't expecting it to be so high. Being a contractor I usually tend to estimate everyone else's work cheaper and mine a little higher . So maybe I right where I should be.

What to do, what to do!

Any comments?

I'd buy a good used oil boiler & be done with it. Thats what I would do, Randy

+1...... I had the oil option on my Wood Gun.

 

[Humplumb]

Why not install all new controls circs ,etc now with your wood gun leave your old boiler.Hook up new system in paralell
Then when you come across a new or good used boiler it would be a simple swap.In this case you have a good back up ncase anything happens to your wood boiler.Having 2 separate systems is better than one combo Imho.Good luck

 

[muncybob]

If you decide on the WG oil burner I believe the "control box" will need some different wiring done? Or maybe it's a totally different control unit and all you will have to do is make a swap with AHS?

I agree that you probably can save some money if you hold off and wait for a decent used unit. Regarding the efficiency of the WG oil burner....I don't think it's as bad as what I was expecting. Oil has been my back up and the small amount we have on hand has been enough for the last 2 years.

No matter which way you go I think you'll probably be using so little oil that the efficiency factor will be a minimal concern. If you do decide on the WG oil option I would suggest you be sure to get the "plug" that you would insert into the oil chamber opening in the lower door. This will help keep any ash away from the burner. Keep in mind that you will need to remove the plug to burn oil.

 

[maple1]

I would also price a new compact oil boiler - I wouldn't think it would be any more than the $2k WG option, or even less. (Does that 2k include the burner itself? I didn't know the oil option was that much - thought you could just slap a burner into it.) I think I would definitely not use the old one, if it is as bad as you/he are saying - this is the time to replace it. There are usually lots of decent used ones also, from people changing to wood or NG or heat pump or whatever from oil. Having said all that, if you really don't think the oil will get used much (sounds like you're counting on electric for summer DHW?) - I would also still consider the WG oil option. You will have to weigh everything - but that would free up a lot of space and get you down to one chimney connection, if that is a factor - maybe even do away with the separate hot water also (can more insulation be added to the WG?). I think it is consensus that two units work better than one (more efficient), but how much of a factor that is comes down to how much the oil will be used. Based on what I know of your situation, I think I would go with (or at least fully price out) two units, replace your oil furnace with a newer 3 pass, and use an indirect hot water tank tied to both on a zone rather than electric hot water. But everyone has their own variables & prioritizing of them.

 

[Jack22]

With the wood gun is the switch over to oil automatic? The good thing about having a second oil boiler in series is that you can set it up so it kicks on automatically. If you are not home to load the wood gun the second boiler will just kick on and your house won't go cold. I'm not sure about the wood gun but I know that alot of combination boilers require some attencion from the operator to switch over to oil. Just something to keep in mind. Good luck with whatever you decide.

-Jack

 

[maple1]

It should be able to be set up automatic - my combo is like that. The boiler gets below a certain aquastat set point, and it starts the oil burner. No intervention required. It does not, however, close the wood draft door - so there is some heat loss up the chimney from that aspect. I just unhook it (wood draft chain) for DHW in the summer. So now I wonder if the WG setup would turn off the wood fan along with start the oil burner?

 

[muncybob]

It should be able to be set up automatic - my combo is like that. The boiler gets below a certain aquastat set point, and it starts the oil burner. No intervention required. It does not, however, close the wood draft door - so there is some heat loss up the chimney from that aspect. I just unhook it (wood draft chain) for DHW in the summer. So now I wonder if the WG setup would turn off the wood fan along with start the oil burner?

Yes, the switch over is automatic. It also has a "lock out" so that you cannot burn wood again until you manually tell it to do so.
I have my unit set up so that the fan does not run at all when the oil is on. I found that the draft was too high with the fan running. If you do not do this, then yes...the fan does run while using oil.

 

[Clarkbug]

http://newyork.craigslist.org/fct/tls/2635691443.html

No idea where you are on the island, but I would take a look at that unit above. Or this one.

http://newhaven.craigslist.org/mat/2611153809.html

That one even has the oil tank.

For the same money as an add-on, you could have this separate highly efficient boiler that may involve some more piping and a little controls work, but I would rather go that way. You dont give anything up efficiency wise when burning oil (as can happen with a combo unit) and it lets you isolate one complete boiler. This way if you had a problem with the WG in the future (I hope you dont!) you can run a separate system instead of being out entirely. Overkill? Probably, but now is the time to think about all of this fun stuff.

Then again, it might be another consideration if you have to run another chimney/flue for two separate units.

 

[btuser]

New oil boiler, controls, near boiler piping, circulators and a stainless exhaust is closer to 10k rather than 5k. I can get over 5k just in parts. I'd go with the WG oil option. Tuned right it it will give you decent efficency.

 

[SmokeEater]

Gasifier,
Sounds like you have a Triangle Tube Indirect? Anyway, I'm just installing a system with a used oil boiler I found in VT. What I want to do is to plumb the new pellet boiler and the used oil boiler to the indirect tank independently. That way I won't be heating the oil boiler and sending btus up the flue when it's off. Hopefully it will not operate most of the time, and only when the pellet boiler is getting cleaned or is down for some other reason. Will have no priority zones off either boiler. I will heat the Indirect to max temp. and pull heat off it with a HX. Then all btus can go out to zones from there with a pump on that side of the tank. Also, I'm using the indirect for DHW with a tempering valve. Most of this equipment is in boxes, but it's getting installed asap.

 

[infinitymike]

Thanks everyone..

I think for now I will keep it as simple as possible. I just want to get it up and running.

I will hook the wood gun up in series with the existing oil burner. This will keep my initial cost down.

Then i will have time to save a few $ and think about whether I want to make the wood gun a combo unit or buy a separate ob.

Am I correct in my thinking? All I have to do is cut into my existing heat loop with the wood gun basically a supply and return line. thats it right. Just some simple piping and Im done.
I will use all the exiting circ pumps on the ob.

I set the ob 10 or 15 * lower then the wg and poof if the fire goes out the ob will kick on.

Can it be that simple?

 

[Gasifier]

Mike,

I am a rookie at this. Period. But, from everything I have read you do not want to plumb you wood boiler in series with your oil boiler. Your boiler guy can look at what you have and build a simple primary/secondary loop so that your oil boiler is piped in paralell.Then leave a couple of shut-off ball valves somewhere so that when you decide to add storage, which I believe you eventually will if you like heating with wood, you can. And you will be ready to go and your wood burning system will be able to provide for you for a longer period of time in the spring and fall. Hopefully someone else will chime in who has more experience than I.

It will not cost you much more money. And you can still use the existing oil boiler and do what you want. Just a suggestion. I am keeping my storage tank up to temp burning once a day right now and providing hot water and a very little heat demand. It is warm hear this week. So not much heat demand. Nice to not be using any oil though. Good luck.

 

[infinitymike]

Gasifier
I do want to eventually hook up in parallel with storage eventually.

For now I NEED to hook up in series because I have very old steel boiler. If it stay cold it will leak and cause me more problems.

My boiler guy is a very smart guy. He is an engineer, he does HVAC boilers,as well as geothermal. Although he has never hooked a wood boiler up. He doesn't seem intimadated by it. Correct me if I'm wrong but its no different then hooking a gas or oil burner up. The only difference is the fuel source. Right?

Anyway more will be revealed.

 

[Gasifier]

Mike,

Couldn't you just have your boiler guy set your old boiler to keep itself at let's say 140 or 150 °F . An aquastat set to turn the furnace on and keep it at 140 or 150. Then you would have your primary/secondary loop all set up to add your storage in later. That old boiler of yours might go for another 5-10 years without any problems. You never know. But I think you are going to find you want to add storage next year. That is how much I like my storage with my Wood Gun!

 

[maple1]

I don't think running in series would be all that bad - if the oil unit is within the building envelope, most of the heat loss will be up to the house. If you put a plain on/off switch in the wire going to the burner to make sure it doesn't come on if you don't want it to, a regular damper in the oil flue pipe that you can close when not running, and cover the burner air inlet with something (might not even be necessary with the damper closed), there won't be much lost up the chimney either.

I'd say just make sure that hot water enters it from the demand return, and not the WG supply.

The main thing is that your existing oil unit is still solid, if you want to do this.

 

[willworkforwood]

Gasifier
I do want to eventually hook up in parallel with storage eventually.

For now I NEED to hook up in series because I have very old steel boiler. If it stay cold it will leak and cause me more problems.

My boiler guy is a very smart guy. He is an engineer, he does HVAC boilers,as well as geothermal. Although he has never hooked a wood boiler up. He doesn't seem intimadated by it. Correct me if I'm wrong but its no different then hooking a gas or oil burner up. The only difference is the fuel source. Right?

Anyway more will be revealed.

You are between a rock and a hard place with that old OB. On one hand, your point about creating new damage by repeatedly letting it go cold, then hot is well taken. It's likely to blow a gasket (or whatever a boiler from 1951 has). But, on the other hand (piping in series), you mentioned that the OB system is already leaking. So if the OB springs a bigger leak that you can't band-aid, then you will have no heat at all until it gets fixed or replaced. Doesn't sound like a happy choice in either case, and you might want to have plan on the shelf for a (fast) replacement OB. Murphy's Law would say it will go South in the middle of a 5 degree January night. As far as your HVAC guy not doing a wood boiler before, just make sure he designs return protection for the WB, and also a dump zone. He probably knows all about those things, but you will want to verify they're in the system design. Good luck with it, whichever way you go.

 

[Gasifier]

That is a good point Willworkforwood. Just seems to me Mike if you had your boiler installer create a simple loop with 2 Ts to the existing oil boiler fed to and returned to and then two Ts with a short pipe and shut off ball valves on the ends for future storage and then the two Ts and shut offs to feed the wood gun you would be all set for no matter what happened. Problem with old boiler and needs to be replaced. Shut off valves and replace it and you still have heat with Wood boiler. Install storage whenever you want without disrupting system. Any problem with Wood boiler. Shut valves to it, fix problem. Oil boiler keeps running. I guess I just think now is the time to do it. Not when you least want to. Like Willworkforwood said, January. Return protection for sure.

 

[bpirger]

Right. If there are things you KNOW you want in the future, like storage, then make sure they are accomodate now in the layout/piping. A couple of ball valves and caps you can easily cut off will save a lot of time later It would be nice to add things without having to drain everything...for example.