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[oldspark]

New last spring but have burned for 30 years, I wonder how its going to work when I want a much bigger fire, my chimney draws fine but it could be better I'm sure, why would a marginal chimney cause the stack temps to be higher or am I misunderstanding you?

 

[precaud]

spark, all I'm saying is you're fixating too much on the bursts in stack temps. Relax. Spurts of high temps in the stack is only a problem if your chimney is marginal. 103 HT is rated for 2100F, I don't know what the duration is but that's well above what you're seeing.

 

[madison]

Look at it this way, you are helping to keep your chimney clean if you do bursts of high stack temperatures.

I also am of the "school" that monitors in general - physiologic, atmospheric etc have a lot of variance, and you could go purchase another temp probe, of the same manufacturer and model -- and get a vastly different temperature. Use the monitors for trending, and when comparing your xxx degrees to someone elses xxx degrees, it is only a relative comparison and not absolute.

 

[oldspark]

Look at it this way, you are helping to keep your chimney clean if you do bursts of high stack temperatures.

I also am of the "school" that monitors in general - physiologic, atmospheric etc have a lot of variance, and you could go purchase another temp probe, of the same manufacturer and model -- and get a vastly different temperature. Use the monitors for trending, and when comparing your xxx degrees to someone elses xxx degrees, it is only a relative comparison and not absolute.

I have an IR temp gun also, this is close to the actual temp, like I said I have burnt wood for 30 years with the same chimney and I know when it is too hot, the stove top and actual flue are no where as close as some of you report, unless the flue quits climbing I will have a hard time seeing 700 stove top temps with out a glowing stove pipe. It would be nice to see what others have seen while monitoring both temps, I can not believe I am the only one seeing this variance it temps on start up.

 

[precaud]

Spark, why do stack temps at startup matter so much? I don't get it.

 

[oldspark]

Spark, why do stack temps at startup matter so much? I don't get it.

I dont have a problem with a little over shoot but like I said I am going to have a glowing stack if I wait for the 700 degree stove top temp people are seeing before they shut down (or try to) their stove. I do believe this is one reason for the over firing issues so common on the forum lately, you are not going to put the binders on a 1200 stack very easily, so the stove top temp continues to rise and no one even knows what their stack was, I can see that coming with my stack temp thermometer.

 

[Pagey]

I would imagine that in any stove with a baffle bypass feature, like my Endeavor, that start up stack temps are significantly higher than in models where the flue gases must traverse the baffle before exiting. I don't know if that means anything or not. Shorter lifespan of the stove pipe and/or Class A?

 

[Sisu]

Spark, why do stack temps at startup matter so much? I don't get it.

I dont have a problem with a little over shoot but like I said I am going to have a glowing stack if I wait for the 700 degree stove top temp people are seeing before they shut down (or try to) their stove. I do believe this is one reason for the over firing issues so common on the forum lately, you are not going to put the binders on a 1200 stack very easily, so the stove top temp continues to rise and no one even knows what their stack was, I can see that coming with my stack temp thermometer.

Even though my flue is inaccessible, it is still partially visible if I peak through the surround. At the peak temps, I have not observed any glowing. I imagine the highest temps are contained in the stove.

 

[begreen]

Look at it this way, you are helping to keep your chimney clean if you do bursts of high stack temperatures.

I also am of the "school" that monitors in general - physiologic, atmospheric etc have a lot of variance, and you could go purchase another temp probe, of the same manufacturer and model -- and get a vastly different temperature. Use the monitors for trending, and when comparing your xxx degrees to someone elses xxx degrees, it is only a relative comparison and not absolute.

I have an IR temp gun also, this is close to the actual temp, like I said I have burnt wood for 30 years with the same chimney and I know when it is too hot, the stove top and actual flue are no where as close as some of you report, unless the flue quits climbing I will have a hard time seeing 700 stove top temps with out a glowing stove pipe. It would be nice to see what others have seen while monitoring both temps, I can not believe I am the only one seeing this variance it temps on start up.

I did this a while back with the T6 and posted it. No time to look it up now, but once winter rolls in, I will do it again. Believe me, if I was seeing 1000 °F continuous flue temps, you would know about it.

FWIW, I've been burning since the late 60's and every stove has been a learning experience. They all have burned differently and taught me something. It takes awhile to fall into a groove with a new stove routine, so give this a little time and observation. The first thing you must do it be sure your instruments are accurate. That's harder with a probe thermometer unless you have calibrated equipment to compare against.

 

[oldspark]

I can not let the stove get up to 700 start up with out a very hot stack and that is the bottom line and what concerns me as other people are doing this with a lower stack temp (or os it would seem), I asked about this last spring and got the same answers but it continues to work this way at 400 stove top I have a stack temp (surface) of 450 to 500 (900 to 1000) inner so I start to reduce the air, I guess I can cut the air back less and see if the stove top temp keeps rising and the stack level off. BeGreen I am just talking about my start up temps, the way it looks now I will never see a stove top temp of 700 with out a higher stack which makes me wonder if the stove has an issue. :-S

 

[precaud]

Maybe you're just trying to ramp the stove up to operating temp too quickly. That's alot of mass to move up to temp from a cold start.

I dunno, I'm groping at this point. I feels like your fixation on the "inner" stack temps is causing more problems than the temps themselves are creating. You certainly don't need the primary air wide open or anywhere near that to get stove temps up.

Also, I don't think that measuring temps on the door is a good place. There's a thick gasket between stove body and door, reducing conductive heat transfer to the door. Front-ish center of the top plate is a better place, IMO.

Also, draft will increase as outside temps go down, and your stove will burn hotter then...

 

[Pagey]

I've honestly forgotten what we were talking about here. :red:

 

[Todd]

I can not let the stove get up to 700 start up with out a very hot stack and that is the bottom line and what concerns me as other people are doing this with a lower stack temp (or os it would seem), I asked about this last spring and got the same answers but it continues to work this way at 400 stove top I have a stack temp (surface) of 450 to 500 (900 to 1000) inner so I start to reduce the air, I guess I can cut the air back less and see if the stove top temp keeps rising and the stack level off. BeGreen I am just talking about my start up temps, the way it looks now I will never see a stove top temp of 700 with out a higher stack which makes me wonder if the stove has an issue. :-S

Check your EBT, maybe it's not right, I know Hog's wasn't right and could of caused all his crack weld problems. I think even Begreen disabled his EBT.

 

[wyosioux]

Pretty big assumption that internal stack temps will be double the stack surface temp. I hardly think that would be accurate. That alone sounds like it is the cause of a lot of frustration Spark.

 

[Todd]

Pretty big assumption that internal stack temps will be double the stack surface temp. I hardly think that would be accurate. That alone sounds like it is the cause of a lot of frustration Spark.

With my system the internals were a little more than double the external temps. I was getting about 1200 internal with a 500 external 20" up the pipe with single wall pipe. But I don't think the Condar probes are as accurate on single wall as double wall because of the radiant heat off the pipe. Last year we had a big thread where stack temps were tested with a thermal couple, I was looking for it but can't find it.

 

[oldspark]

Pretty big assumption that internal stack temps will be double the stack surface temp. I hardly think that would be accurate. That alone sounds like it is the cause of a lot of frustration Spark.

Not an assumption, been posted a couple of times that it is nearly double the surface temp of the stack, pretty big assumption that I was assuming that. :cheese:

 

[madison]

Just this morning I had a stack temp of 450 to 500 stack (surface) while the stove top was 400, you are telling me this is not normal? I was told to double the surface mount compared to a probe type.

Sparky,

I came on this late, and please, I am only trying to learn and help, but "upon further review" of this thread, I have a couple of ?'s

Is your "stack" single wall, dbl wall, or class a ? And when you state (quoted above) that the STACK surface temp is 450-500 is this the IR or magnetic or probe temp? And since you have an IR (not that it cannot have its own source of errors) how does your IR compare to the magnetic, if that is the other type of temp probe?

Your other statement which I did not quote, is that "someone" told you to double the surface temp to get the internal temp? Surface temp of what, single wall, dbl wall, class a? IMHO that is possibly the source of the error.

 

[precaud]

Spark, if, as you say, the temps at the center of the stack are double the temps on the outside of your single wall pipe, what temp is the flue gas that is in contact with the inside of the pipe? And isn't that the temp you are most concerned about?

 

[oldspark]

Here we go, this was of some help and proves I am not crazy (yet).

"Don’t have the T6, but the T5, so they should start off the same. On a reload I cannot leave the air control wide open very long. The flue temps will shoot above 1000 quickly (probe thermometer in double wall). That’s with only 300 - 350 stove top temp. I’m having to use my flue temps as a guide to when I should start shutting the air down. When the flue temp hits @ 500 I’m throttling down to at least 1/2. Once I start throttling the air down the stove temps start to rise. Within 15 minutes I’m down to 1/8 - fully closed, with stove top at 500 and stack temps falling back down to my comfort range. I’m Still learning the nuances of the PE stoves too, my prior stove had a cat. "

 

[madison]

Not sure who you quoted, and what it actually proves.

Spark, is your stack double or single wall?

 

[precaud]

What we have heeyah is... (a failyah to camunicate?)... no... unrealistic expectations.

Upon reloading the stove, you expect to be able to keep the air control wide open for an extended period (until the top plate gets above 500F), without having the "inner" temps of the stack go above 1000F.

Unrealistic expectations. It's really that simple.

How much does your stove weigh?

Compare that to the mass of your chimney lining.

Doesn't matter how long you've been burning wood, there is no way this is going to work as you expect.

Once the fire is established, close down the air control in steps to slow the velocity of the flue gasses, keeping them in the stove longer.

Methinks this is a case where your having a fancy temp probe tool is a big distraction and not showing you anything useful.

 

[oldspark]

Do you know why I thought it I had a problem, read all the post about the overfireing, they are watching the stove top temp only and not even paying attention to stack temp which is not correct and I have been preaching that all along, you can not leave it wide open and start to back off the primary aire at 6 to 7 hundred degrees and expect it to react quickly. The reason I can not get the stove top up to temp is the fires are too small for that to happen. When I have a bigger load of wood the stove top should heat up when I start to reduce the primary air (I think). I hope you can understand the reason for my confusion. Thanks for all the discussion, I have learned more than I would have ever thought possible in the 8 months I have been a member.

 

[oldspark]

What we have heeyah is... (a failyah to camunicate?)... no... unrealistic expectations.

Upon reloading the stove, you expect to be able to keep the air control wide open for an extended period (until the top plate gets above 500F), without having the "inner" temps of the stack go above 1000F.

Unrealistic expectations. It's really that simple.

How much does your stove weigh?

Compare that to the mass of your chimney lining.

Doesn't matter how long you've been burning wood, there is no way this is going to work as you expect.

Once the fire is established, close down the air control in steps to slow the velocity of the flue gasses, keeping them in the stove longer.

This is a case where your having a fancy temp probe tool is a big distraction and not showing you anything useful.

I'm outta here.

No one answered my straight forward questions so I had to ask more to find out what I was wondering, been burning wood for 30 years and not sure why you had to add that insult!

 

[madison]

Just this morning I had a stack temp of 450 to 500 stack (surface) while the stove top was 400, you are telling me this is not normal? I was told to double the surface mount compared to a probe type.

Sparky,

I came on this late, and please, I am only trying to learn and help, but "upon further review" of this thread, I have a couple of ?'s

Is your "stack" single wall, dbl wall, or class a ? And when you state (quoted above) that the STACK surface temp is 450-500 is this the IR or magnetic or probe temp? And since you have an IR (not that it cannot have its own source of errors) how does your IR compare to the magnetic, if that is the other type of temp probe?

Your other statement which I did not quote, is that "someone" told you to double the surface temp to get the internal temp? Surface temp of what, single wall, dbl wall, class a? IMHO that is possibly the source of the error.

Spark, honest questions without an attempt of "attitude" on my part, just curious if you could answer any of the questions quoted above and in my previous posts....

thanks

 

[precaud]

yes, I was running out of patience, but it wasn't meant as an insult, spark. Only a way of saying, no amount of experience will make something happen that can't.

There is such a phobia here this season about overfiring, and expecting stoves to perform in the shoulder season as they will when temps are colder.

I'm glad to hear you've figured it out to your satisfaction, we all want happy burners here. Enjoy!