Ready to Join The Gang - Time For a Wood Stove!

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I haven't inquired about Enviro Pricing. Where do they stand against the above mentioned PE's?

At this point, we're probably splitting hairs over a few hundred one way or another, so it would probably behoove me to simply choose the one I think would best fit my needs...
 
What insulation do you now have in your attic? The difference when we blew in cellulose here was HUGE...but there was nothing up there before. If you have some roll insulation up there now (how thick?) you could have cellulose blown in to beef it up. A lot of heat goes up through the ceiling, including around light fixture gaps. With that taken care of, and improving air sealing around doors and windows, your heat retention will go way up and you can opt for a smaller insert. If you put a big insert in now, then you will be fighting to not heat yourself out once you improve your insulation and air sealing. Trying to burn small fires in a big stove is inefficient, as well as being a hassle; You may often end up letting fires burn out, and then having to start a cold stove. Also bear in mind the savings you'll realize from either not having to process as much wood, or not having to buy as much.
 
What insulation do you now have in your attic?
I'm pretty sure it's some old crappy rollout out sheets of R-19 insulation. That's definitely something I can beef up. We do use about half the attic space for storage though, so won't it lessen the quality of insulation if we throw plywood over the top and press it down?

Trying to burn small fires in a big stove is inefficient
And I've been asking this question, but it seems that most people say to go with the bigger box and not to be concerned about having to run smaller fires in a bigger box. The bigger box will just give longer burn times if you have the settings adjusted appropriately....
 
Iwon't it lessen the quality of insulation if we throw plywood over the top and press it down?
True. I don't know but there may be newer alternatives that would provide higher insulation value within the 2x6 height available...
seems that most people say to go with the bigger box and not to be concerned about having to run smaller fires in a bigger box. The bigger box will just give longer burn times if you have the settings adjusted appropriately....
Yes, but you can only cleanly run a non-cat so low. But you do live in a relatively harsh climate, with more full-bore burning once it gets cold than we have here. We get a lot of breaks in the nasty weather.
 
I'm pretty sure it's some old crappy rollout out sheets of R-19 insulation. That's definitely something I can beef up. We do use about half the attic space for storage though, so won't it lessen the quality of insulation if we throw plywood over the top and press it down?
Calling @woodgeek.

And I've been asking this question, but it seems that most people say to go with the bigger box and not to be concerned about having to run smaller fires in a bigger box. The bigger box will just give longer burn times if you have the settings adjusted appropriately....
A non-cat stove requires an exhaust gas temperature of 1100F or higher to activate the secondary burn. If you can achieve this with your small fire (burned at a higher rate), then you're good to go. The troubles to which Woody is referring is when folks try to burn a small fire at a low rate, which is the exclusive territory of a cat stove, being able to activate secondary burn below 500F.

The compromise, if running non-cat, is to burn small hot fires. This will get the stove hot quick, which can work. Think of your house as a giant capacitor. Putting a 500F (stovetop temp) stove in that space for hours on end may overheat you on a mild day. But if you rocket that stove up to 500F for just an hour or two, the objects your house will absorb the heat and radiate it back slowly. Not as ideal as running a cat stove, but a workable compromise, that many here use.
 
I haven't inquired about Enviro Pricing. Where do they stand against the above mentioned PE's?
That would depend on local dealers. The Enviro Kodiak 1700 is the rough equivalent to the PE Super, but with a .5 cu ft larger firebox. I would expect them to be close in pricing, but you never know, a dealer may be trying to move last year's stock at a discounted price. Call around.

If the intention is to address leaks and beef up insulation in the house then the Super/T5 will be quite sufficient.
 
What year is was this house built? In some cases, if keeping the authenticity of an old house is of value, a conscious choice is made to limit how much you address the leaks and insulation.
 
So what happens when running a smaller fire in a non-cat stove at a low rate and there is no secondary burn? Lower efficiency and higher possibility for creosote buildup? I'm trying to get a better grasp on understanding in what conditions I would be running the stove where having a cat stove would be very helpful.

I'll go back and read through the post a few back explaining cat stoves before asking more questions.
 
That would depend on local dealers. The Enviro Kodiak 1700 is the rough equivalent to the PE Super, but with a .5 cu ft larger firebox. I would expect them to be close in pricing, but you never know, a dealer may be trying to move last year's stock at a discounted price. Call around.

Will do. Will also check with the ultimate authority, the wife! I'm still trying to push the Super/Summit inserts over the Neo. :eek:

What year is was this house built? In some cases, if keeping the authenticity of an old house is of value, a conscious choice is made to limit how much you address the leaks and insulation.

House was built in early 1960s. I'm not sure what you mean but value in keeping authenticity of an older house potentially having value. Is there ever a time where a clear upgrade, especially one that is not necessarily visible, would lower the value.
 
So what happens when running a smaller fire in a non-cat stove at a low rate and there is no secondary burn? Lower efficiency and higher possibility for creosote buildup?
If you are trying to move the room temp 3-5º you will be burning a decent sized fire. When temps are mild, instead of running a very low fire which would smolder you run a hotter, small fire with less splits than a full load. That keeps efficiency up without overheating the house. We do this during milder weather. For example, it was 45F yesterday morning and I made a 5 split fire instead of a full house 9-10 split fire. I let it burn to ashes and didn't refuel the firebox as the sun took over warming the house around noontime. The fire brought the LR temp up from 65F to 74F in an hour or so and the rest of the house was about 70F.
 
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House was built in early 1960s. I'm not sure what you mean but value in keeping authenticity of an older house potentially having value. Is there ever a time where a clear upgrade, especially one that is not necessarily visible, would lower the value.
There are special construction circumstances where it is hard to insulate a house well without great expense or without altering its intrinsic character. Think log or stone houses. Your house is not that case. Get an energy audit by the state, seal up leaks aggressively, and insulate well. This will pay off 24/7, 365 days a year.
 
House was built in early 1960s. I'm not sure what you mean but value in keeping authenticity of an older house potentially having value. Is there ever a time where a clear upgrade, especially one that is not necessarily visible, would lower the value.
Don't know how much merit this has but I heard that if your house was built before 1978 you need special contractors to due work due to the possibility of lead paint contamination, again don't know how try that is, one of the old timers was telling me at work about how he had to pay extra for a different type of window installer to do his windows due to the house age and possible lead paint.
 
If you are trying to move the room temp 3-5º you will be burning a decent sized fire. When temps are mild, instead of running a very low fire which would smolder you run a hotter, small fire with less splits than a full load. That keeps efficiency up without overheating the house. We do this during milder weather. For example, it was 45F yesterday morning and I made a 5 split fire instead of a full house 9-10 split fire. I let it burn to ashes and didn't refuel the firebox as the sun took over warming the house around noontime. The fire brought the LR temp up from 65F to 74F in an hour or so and the rest of the house was about 70F.

I think I'm a bit confused when you're saying you're running a smaller(5 v 10 split), hotter fire, but you're not overheating the house. If it's a hotter fire, isn't it going to heat the house up a bit? Or are you saying that since it is a smaller fire, even though it's running at a higher temperature, it's smaller in size so the amount of heat it's giving off is proper for the circumstance?

And to add to this, how is running a small, hot fire more efficient? Isn't it going to burn the wood quicker rather than a slower burning, full oven?

And is this where efficiency for a cat box comes into play? Rather than making the smaller, hotter fire, you can consistently run a large load and just manage heat through airflow knowing that secondary burn will happen even at the lower temps?
 
The duration of the burn will be shorter with less fuel and the temp will be lower. With a full 10 log load our stove top will cruise at 600-650F for hours. Yesterday's fire only reached about 500F stovetop. This was still plenty hot enough for good secondary combustion. It's more efficient because the fire was allowed to go out instead of overheating the house.
And is this where efficiency for a cat box comes into play? Rather than making the smaller, hotter fire, you can consistently run a large load and just manage heat through airflow knowing that secondary burn will happen even at the lower temps?
Yes, a cat stove burns the volatiles coming off the wood through the catalyst. Depending on the design this can be more efficient, especially if you want appliance-like low heat over a long period of time. The advantage is less when the stove is being pushed harder for real heat. Note that all cat stoves are not created equal. Burn times vary a lot. Also, there are differences in design and some are hybrids using both a cat and secondary tube.
There are many many past threads on this topic here that a search will turn up.
 
The duration of the burn will be shorter with less fuel and the temp will be lower. With a full 10 log load our stove top will cruise at 600-650F for hours. Yesterday's fire only reached about 500F stovetop. This was still plenty hot enough for good secondary combustion. It's more efficient because the fire was allowed to go out instead of overheating the house.

Yes, a cat stove burns the volatiles coming off the wood through the catalyst. Depending on the design this can be more efficient, especially if you want appliance-like low heat over a long period of time. The advantage is less when the stove is being pushed harder for real heat. Note that all cat stoves are not created equal. Burn times vary a lot. Also, there are differences in design and some are hybrids using both a cat and secondary tube design.

There are many many past threads on this topic here that a search will turn up.

I guess either way I go, I'll need to look up a bit more about how to effectively operate a wood stove based on the type of stove I'm using, and finding a balance between heat output, and optimizing efficiency.

To make sure that I'm following properly so far, the reason for your small burn yesterday was so when the wood was flaming, it was very hot and secondary burn in your non-cat was initiated. But this was only done for a short period of time to avoid the house overheating. As the wood continued to burn down, there was no longer a need for a secondary burn. And since it was warming up outside, the less heat the box began to give off was a desired side effect of the smaller burn.

The difference between this and had it been a cat stove would have been there would not have been that initial need to get that hot fire going to start since the Cat Stove would have been able to produce a secondary burn at a lower temp.

Not sure if this thought process is right, but that's my rudimentary understanding so far! I'll do a search to try and get a better understanding.
 
House was built in early 1960s. I'm not sure what you mean but value in keeping authenticity of an older house potentially having value. Is there ever a time where a clear upgrade, especially one that is not necessarily visible, would lower the value.
I was thinking old houses, something built before the American Revolution. In my case, we have an un-insulated stone house, with windows and doors dating to 1770's. Some parts of the house are as old as 1738, and never messed up with modern insulation and vinyl windows. There is historical value in this that goes beyond what I'm paying in additional heating costs.

I think I'm a bit confused when you're saying you're running a smaller(5 v 10 split), hotter fire, but you're not overheating the house.
You're confusing stove temperature with house temperature. You can sit a 500F stove in your house for a short period of time, without enormous impact on indoor house temperature. That hot stove may eventually bring your house up to an uncomfortable warm temperature, but not if you keep the duration of the fire short enough, by limiting how much wood you put in the box.

Another way to look at this is to consider that you're putting a fixed number for BTU's in the firebox, when you build a fire. Whether you release it quickly or slowly, you're still putting a similar net BTU into your living space. Assuming that living space has enough size and mass to create a long time constant against the load of the stove, the temperature will not spike quite so badly.

Thermodynamics vs. Thermostatics. Fun stuff, for the physics-minded.
 
Yes, I think I still have a lot confused right now, not even necessarily directly related to cat vs non-cat stoves, but how to optimally run an oven, like how hot to run the fire, how much to fill it, and how these variables change based on temperature, time, etc.
 
This is pretty typical. It's an expensive purchase and you want to make the right decision. Don't overthink it too much. If you have a proper and safe installation with a good stove AND have good fully seasoned wood, the rest will come with experience. There is an art to burning well with wood. We can help with that. There are thousands of posts here with folks that have gone through similar circumstances.
 
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What year is was this house built? In some cases, if keeping the authenticity of an old house is of value, a conscious choice is made to limit how much you address the leaks and insulation.
Yeah, a cool breeze on the ankles is part of the charm. ;)
What begreen was saying was that a smaller, hot fire with secondary burn is going to be more efficient than letting a big load smolder (no secondaries) in an effort to not roast yourself out. But if you have to start a lot of small fires, it's inefficient in that, during the startup period when you are getting the stove hot enough for the secondary to kick in, you are spewing some unburned smoke and volatiles out the flue. And annoying your neighbors if they are close by. Better to have a stove size close to what you need the majority of the time, then let your backup heat help in extreme conditions. With the right size stove you'll be able to load full most of the time, and let the load run its course.
 
This is pretty typical. It's an expensive purchase and you want to make the right decision. Don't overthink it too much. If you have a proper and safe installation with a good stove AND have good fully seasoned wood, the rest will come with experience. There is an art to burning well with wood. We can help with that. There are thousands of posts here with folks that have gone through similar circumstances.
Yeah, a cool breeze on the ankles is part of the charm. ;)
What begreen was saying was that a smaller, hot fire with secondary burn is going to be more efficient than letting a big load smolder (no secondaries) in an effort to not roast yourself out. But if you have to start a lot of small fires, it's inefficient in that, during the startup period when you are getting the stove hot enough for the secondary to kick in, you are spewing some unburned smoke and volatiles out the flue. And annoying your neighbors if they are close by. Better to have a stove size close to what you need the majority of the time, then let your backup heat help in extreme conditions. With the right size stove you'll be able to load full most of the time, and let the load run its course.

Both very well said. Great community here with tons of resources. Hopefully I will be able to reciprocate and help others in the future.

I'll continue to posts update about the purchase/install/usage and then consolidate into a summary at some point. Hopefully it can provide answers to someone in a similar situation in the future.
 
Ok, I'll give a little of what I've learned. I have a free standing tiny stove at 1 house. The second house is probably closer to what you have. 1500 sqft, block construction, new windows, good attic insulation, insert. Warmer here in VA, but we'll hit the teens at night. I have a 1.5 cuft firebox on the insert. If I could do it again, I'd go free-standing. Nicer without the fan, I prefer the warmth. On my interior chimney, the heat output is probably about the same. Firebox size: Go bigger. I can keep my house warm if I'm tending the stove, but I have to run it hard and pack it often. I get 4 hours of a good burn out of it, and by the am my house will be cold--it dips 1-2'/hour that the stove isn't running. It also takes a while in the morning to get it back up to temp=more fiddling. On my vacation house this isn't a big deal, but a cold start in the AM sucks if you're trying to go to work. Cat v. non-cat? I'd probably go larger stove/cat, but firebox size would def be my determining factor. Looks? I think they all look fine (as does my wife and anyone who's seen my stoves) if they have a big window. Very few aspects in life where you say I wish I went smaller/had less power/etc. Oh, and I find my stove that I can load N/S to be easier to load, and easier to start. Going E/W tends to block off your airflow, esp on a cold start.
 
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Would the PE Summit or Super Insert be considered a hearth insert?

Is it able to provide some radiant heat from the part that sticks out better than your standard flush stove?
 
Another advantage of free-standing stoves = easy swap-out! I started burning stoves in autumn 2011, and was on stoves number four and five by spring 2015. It was like musical stoves for a few years, here.

If I replace my current pair, it will be with another pair of BK's.
 
Another advantage of free-standing stoves = easy swap-out! I started burning stoves in autumn 2011, and was on stoves number four and five by spring 2015. It was like musical stoves for a few years, here.

If I replace my current pair, it will be with another pair of BK's.

Yeah, but the more I look at my layout, I think I'd end up losing quite a bit of the benefit of having a free stander by having to tuck it so far back into the fireplace so it could exhaust through the current opening...