Requiem For The Oil Drum

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Take the retirement out of the title and that is exactly what we should be doing. Isn't it funny that the concept of "retirement" only started with the industrialization which began with the discovery of fossil fuels? Saving for "old age" was previously accomplished by getting lots of children who supplied the labor to keep someone alive when they could not work themselves anymore.

Laugh about it as much as you want but if you are right and we do as I suggest, it is a mere inconvenience. If I am right and we do you as you suggest, you may just have accomplished the extinction of the human species.

On the last point I think the third world will be the survivors in a scenario like that. They have been getting by on what we would consider nothing for a very long time & they have gotten good at it. They also tend to deal with each other is social circumstances in a much more humane manner. They learned the value of sharing & getting along & have kept it by & large despite our attempts to "modernize" them.

Now in the first world in that scenario...totally different, gonna make a nasty zombie apocalypse movie look like a real yawn. We will happily kill each other for whatever stuff remains. Until there is no more "the other guy" or no more stuff, probably the former. Glad I will be dust, should that scenario come to pass.
 
So what I'm getting here Grisu is that you don't think that PO theory is dead. :confused:

We are talking past each other because we have not agreed on a definition of PO theory yet. WE can keep moving the goal posts and changing the definitions and we have an irrefutable hypothesis.

1) As promulgated by the Drummers in the mid 2000s, the peak of oil production was 2005 (or 2006 or 2007), global production would then fall some fixed percentage per year (an exponential decay) set by geological limits and when this happened (starting ~2008) prices would skyrocket exponentially to levels like $100, $200, $400, $1000/barrel that would cripple society, destroy our lifestyle, and lead to the dying off of most humans.

OK, that didn't happen. The exponentially increasing price topped at $150, fell to $50, and settled on a plateau of $100 for 4 years and counting.

2) After the oil price collapse in 2008/9, the story changed....PO was still important b/c it had caused the financial crisis that everyone was talking about. Of course, it also lead to the collapse of the Soviet Union in their telling. But the price forecast had to be changed---the PO induced financial crisis had destroyed demand, and bought us a few additional years of survival, but the geological limits were still there. As soon as the economy recovers, they predicted, oil demand will rise to the previous level, the price will rise again, and a new PO-induced recession will occur. The prediction is that the global economy will never be able to grow much above its 2008 peak, and each oil price spike/recession will be worse than the last, and take us to a lower standard of living and GDP.

OK, that hasn't happened either. The US and global economies have been growing since 2009, at a pace consistent with their different circumstances. China has been booking solid growth consistent with the typical 'emerging market' growth curve versus per capita GDP. The US has been growing at a slower pace, consistent with being a more developed economy. The EU took an austerity route, and has been enjoying a mild recession. None of this looks like the (revised) PO prediction....poor counties (China) would be priced out first and die off first. The US would be crippled by its greater dependence on oil per capita, and the EU would adapt better and be more resilient in a PO plateau world.

3) When folks point out ~2011 that oil prices are stable, oil supplies are growing, GDP is making new highs, the PO folks won't give up. Rather than being a 'commodity supercycle' like the 1975-1985 period, where a lot of new resources were developed after a price spike, the PO folks insist that PO and the geological limits are still there....waiting, always waiting, to kill off us foolish humans.

--They say that shale oil and shale gas are fictions, not that they are bad/polluting, but that they **won't work**, because EROIEIO is below 5, or 3 or whatever, and that is impossible, or that decline rates are exponential and 60% per year. Soon all the companies doing fracking will soon go out of business, existing wells will deplete in 1-2 years and then we are back to the previous PO story.

--They say that GDP growth is fictional. The US is NOT making more products (per capita) and selling them overseas then it ever has before. If it appears that way, it is not stable....only the result of cooked financial data from a crooked US govt (most be both parties, since the same cooking of the books occurred with both parties in the white house), or the result of QEx goosing the system in a totally unsustainable way, that depending on who you ask will result in weimar hyperinflation, or the collapse of the US govt and GDP as soon as rates start to rise when QE is ended, etc.

4) When folks in 2013 point out that PO has all the trappings of a falsified hypothesis (i.e. multiple failed predictions and resulting moving of goalposts and revising of predictions), PO folks retreat to safety. They issue easy platitudes like 'oil is finite', 'exponential growth cannot continue forever on a finite earth', 'PO was never about the oil just running out one day', 'fracking is really bad, people won't go for it', 'the EIA predicts PO in 2035, this will all come to pass then, we better get ready for it'. Uh huh.

There we have it folks, no die off, no oil production peak, oil prices in a narrow band around $100, gas guzzlers still the most popular models (in the US), GDP at new highs and growing at rates comparable to pre 2005 period. But we are deluding ourselves...its all a trick by Obama and Bernanke...one of these days the crash will come and the hard geological limits of PO theory will rise up again.
 
To develop Craig's 'smart money' point a bit....

If PO were a threat to civilization, you would think that different governments around the world and the UN would be funding a huge effort....

In the US, you would see...
—The bodies whose job is to make projections of energy industries, the EIA and its international counterparts would be sounding the alarm (and asking for more $$ for research).
—The POTUS would ask the National academies, NAS and NAE, to convene panels of senior scientists and engineers to study the problem at depth, identify strategic paths and solutions, and prepare a lengthy report
—The DOE and NSF would fund significant programs to model the petroleum extraction problem, petroleum technology generally, undertake massive alternative energy programs, in the name of averting PO.
—The govt would pay the oil companies to build an array of syncrude (coal to liquid) plants in Montana and Utah, and contract to buy their products for xxx years.
—The govt would, in the name of national security, proceed to build out an electrified transportation system, e.g. electric rail, to support necessary interstate commerce (and travel) in a post PO world.

If you think the civil govt is blind/incompetent, you also have to say that all the military and spooks are too...this is supposed to be THE major threat to our existence in 2005, and they would get the civilian govt on board. IF they are all incompetent, the scientists at the oil majors would be telling their execs that this is the business opportunity of their lifetimes....how much will civilization pay to prevent collapse and die off? Every dime they have. So, those execs would be lobbying the govt to do the above, and contract them to build syncrude plants, develop marginal resources, etc.

Can't you imagine Cheney coming out in a gravelly voice and telling us of this grim threat to our way of life, and that it can be solved if we just give Exxon and Schlumberger ~$300B for a crash program to build "Freedom Oil" syncrude plants in Utah? ;lol

Beyond the US, you would see other countries doing much the same sorts of things, everyone rapidly covering their azzes before the big PO boom comes down.

How much of that happened in the 2000s? None. The EIA revised its long term oil price and supply projections over the space of a few years. The DOE and DoD paid for some biofuel programs, and did some biofuel demos with aircraft. The military rolled out some solar PV, and the US embarked on a massive ethanol program. All of these were either small scale experiments, or done in the name of AGW, or were really Ag programs. AFAIK, the govt funded ZERO research into the PO issue. No startups or large companies got govt loans to help remediate/avoid the PO problem. The US Govt bet with their wallets....$0 total.

How does the PO community respond to this glaring lack of attention, back in the 2000s? They said (1) that govt is incompetent to let the PO problem get this far (2) there are no solutions so none are being sought (3) to admit PO would cause 'mass panic' that would trigger the collapse/dieoff, so the whole thing has to be kept an (apparently well known) secret and (4) the entire Iraq War was a (secret) plan to seize enough oil reserves to keep the US going in a PO world, don't you see?

Yeeeah.

Instead we got a website, The Oil Drum, (that at its peak was smaller than Hearth.com), that published an original article every few days. There was also the ASPO organization, which had a (rather small) conference every year to discuss PO. All these folks were self-funded 'enthusiasts' and amateurs. When was the last conference held? 2008! IOW, interest in the PO problem has been on the wane for 5 years already, and even the die hard believers can't scrape together enough funds or interest to hold an annual conference.

As tinfoil hat groups go, the Evolution deniers and AGW deniers appear to be much larger and better organized and funded.
 
Take the retirement out of the title and that is exactly what we should be doing. Isn't it funny that the concept of "retirement" only started with the industrialization which began with the discovery of fossil fuels? Saving for "old age" was previously accomplished by getting lots of children who supplied the labor to keep someone alive when they could not work themselves anymore.
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and the concept of hundreds of millions traveling long distances went crazy with the wheel and safe ships. It doesn't mean those things were false economies or we'd wake up one day and wheels would no longer work.

Most people didn't live to old age - or at least on average, so it was not as big of a deal. Also, read your history. You can find much about retirement in even the founders writings which were before any real use of fossil fuels. In other words, you are making up that "fact", IMHO. Of course, the Industrial Revolution did pull us off of farms, so we needed to change the structure of how we feed and house ourselves in old age!

"From the Roman Empire to the modern nation state, rulers and parliaments have found it expedient to provide pensions for the workers who carried out their policies and, thus, helped perpetuate their regimes. The history of these public sector pension plans is both colorful and instructive. More than two thousand years ago, the fall of the Roman republic and the rise of the empire were inextricably linked to the payment, or rather the nonpayment, of military pensions"
 
They did get the government on board when they rolled back Clean Water Act and laws to legalize fracking.

We've been putting the kibosh on production in this country for almost 40 years, waiting for the easy oil to run out. It was a good plan, because shale oil can't compete with $2/bbl oil from the middle east. What's changed? We are no longer the market force that drives price.

This country can produce a hell of a lot of oil.
 
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They did get the government on board when they rolled back Clean Water Act and laws to legalize fracking.

We've been putting the kibosh on production in this country for almost 40 years, waiting for the easy oil to run out. It was a good plan, because shale oil can't compete with $2/bbl oil from the middle east. What's changed? We are no longer the market force that drives price.

This country can produce a hell of a lot of oil.


The middle east borrowed so much money that they need $60 or more (probably $100 over the long term) to stay solvent.

I owe, I owe, so it's off to work we go.....etc.

The reason, IMHO, that nat gas is so cheap now is because they have not yet worked out the logistics of shipping it everywhere...and, of course, your comment about fracking applies. When you don't have to pay for your mistakes, you can deliver products cheaper.
 
I said we can produce a lot. I didn't say we should.

1/2 the air pollution in Los Angeles California originates in China.
 
I said we can produce a lot. I didn't say we should.

1/2 the air pollution in Los Angeles California originates in China.


No doubt the world is screwed up. We have to look out for the nuke stuff now, as that plant in Japan is probably going to cause a world class disaster....

I don't doubt global warming or limited resources or that we have/are screwing up things in our quests for energy - I guess the difference in outlooks is that I tend to see change(s) as long term directions as opposed to the almost instant results and ramifications claimed by some.

Thinking that the world works in concert with our lives, calendars, decades, etc. is probably a mistake. It's a big place and too many systems are at work for any one theory to ever be that accurate - such as Peak Oil.

They were probably more right than wrong in their stats, etc. - the problem was that they drew a conclusion.
 
Indeed, some really bad things happen so slowly that folks growing up in a impoverished world think it is 'normal' and impoverish it a little more.
 
We may have our own water ghettos here the way we are fracking. This seems to be a time bomb waiting for its own Macondo moment.
 
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