Scary Tragedy

[hardwood715]

Friday, March 30, 2007
Cause sought in fatal fire
2 killed; victims' identities held back by officials


By David Paulsen
Poughkeepsie Journal



CLINTON HOLLOW - Investigators should have a "good sense" today of what caused the house fire northwest of Salt Point that killed two people Thursday morning, according to the Dutchess County Sheriff's Office.

"It's a scene where two people died, and we're going to be very thorough and methodical," said Deputy T.J. Hanlon, a spokesman for the sheriff's office.

Investigators were still looking into the cause of the fire late Thursday, and officials were withholding the victims' identities pending notification of family members.

County property records identify Andrew Papp as the owner of the 2 1/2-acre property. Papp, a retired financial executive, ran for the town board in 2003 as a Democrat, but the slate of incumbent Republicans prevailed in Clinton that year.

The first report of the fire came in at 8:10 a.m., and several fire departments responded to the scene on East Halstead Road between Clinton Hollow Road and Little Wappinger Creek. Early reports identified the blaze as a chimney fire, but it quickly spread to the rest of the house.

Firefighters spent two hours battling flames until the scene was contained enough that fire investigators could begin looking around the debris.

Wayne Castilonia, 61, who lives next door, said he didn't know the Papps well.

Castilonia and his wife, Marie, moved to their home on Clinton Hollow Road about five years ago when Castilonia retired from the Yonkers Fire Department. He said Thursday a passing motorist alerted Marie Castilonia to the fire as she was about to drive out of the driveway. She told her husband, and he called 911.

Wayne Castilonia said he walked over to the house and saw the smoke coming from the chimney and roof.

"There were no flames showing," he said, and he tried to see if anyone was inside by banging on the windows and doors, which he said were hot.

Firefighters arrived soon after. The fire crew set up one truck in the driveway and aimed its water cannon at the house, while tankers and pumpers from several departments shuttled between the fire scene and a town park to relay extra water from the park's pond.

The Red Cross was also at the scene, offering water to firefighters and other services to neighbors.

"It actually worked very well," East Clinton Deputy Fire Chief Tim McCormack said at about 10:30 a.m. when the fire was under control.

McCormack wouldn't speculate on the cause of the fire, but the damage was visibly more severe near the chimney on the east side of the house, where little remained other than charred beams.

The sheriff's office and the Department of Emergency Response are leading the investigation into the cause of the fire.

No other details on the fire or its investigation have been released.

Reach David Paulsen at [email protected] or 845-437-4809

 

[webbie]

Sort of strange that they give the political lowdown in the middle of an article about chimney fires and death!
If only he would have listened to Elk and got that thing lined.

 

[jjbaer]

Sort of strange that they give the political lowdown in the middle of an article about chimney fires and death!
If only he would have listened to Elk and got that thing lined.

Lined AND insulated..........

 

[hookspacken]

Just for my own knowledge, and I know this may sound stupid, but here it goes. What is the ultimate danger with a chimney fire? is it the flames and sparks igniting the roof or is it the intense heat igniting nearby wood. Do these dangers vary wit hthe chimney constuction and materials? I have a metalbestos insulated chimney from the ceiling up through the attic, double wall stove pipe going into the chimney. just trying to educate a bit better on some of the dangers of woodburning.

 

[Michael6268]

I have often wondered that myself. A properly constructed masonry chimney lined with clay flues for instance. Is the fire really going to eat through the flue liner and through the bricks to ignite the wooden house structure? No doubt could ruin some flue tiles, but assuming the masonry is ok, I dont see how it could ignite framing if proper spacing was followed. Seems to me unless the chimney was totally neglected, the creosote would burn off and the fire would die out before that happened. As for the flames igniting the roof, i dont know..

 

[webbie]

There are a number of reasons, which we might even find in some old discussions here.

First, as Elk and anyone in construction can attest, about 2% or less of the existing masonry chimneys meet the current standard - that says a lot. In other words, they found out that the way they were allowing things to be done was WRONG.

Secondly, the brick lobby is the only reason that typical flue lined chimneys are legal for use with wood fires. They cannot and do not meet the same standards as metal chimneys and stoves.

Thirdly, even if they were safe when properly constructed (and granted, this is possible), you have all the variables such who built it, etc. - on this subject, lots of builders are starting to use the precast masonry fireplaces and chimneys - much better!

As to the exact cause of such fires, I suspect the vast majority start in the wall pass though or else - with open fireplaces - with heat transfered through the rear wall or improper smoke chamber....so you are correct in making the point that it is less likely that it happened at the tile level.

And, as far as "neglected" you can assume that a large % of people do neglect their chimneys.

Add all this to Murphy, and you have dead people....of course, the death and injury cases are well under control and way less than other dangers...like smoking, etc.
But for folks who make this their business (NFPA, standards groups), it's like Polio - they want to totally eradicate it...especially if it can be done at relatively low cost. Building or installing a proper chimney does not cost any more than an improper one....although making it so later does!

 

[hookspacken]

So would it be safe to say that a steel insulated chimney is safer that a unlined masonary chimney when talking about house fire danger?

 

[hooligan]

Chimney fires in moderen day, properly installed and maintained chimneys pose little threat,,,,,,, bear with me here.... I mean a masonary chimney with a properly installed clay liner, can with stand a pretty good fire. Problem is that a cresote fire burns directly against the tile and if there is an air space beteen the tile and the masonary, the intense heat could cause the tile to "pop" or fracture. This is due to the air expanding with no place to go. Although this may or may not cause a problem at this fire, the next one it surley will and the fire can now get out of it's point of origin. Effectivley after a tile is compromised you have an unliner chimney.

Also an issue is facades built into the room to look nice. These may trap wood construction between the chimney and the stone or brick facade, this heating of the wood over time can dry the wood out and make it more susceptible to a fire. When there is a chimney fire, any place that is not sealed with masonary or tiled becomes a place the fire can travel and get out of the chimney.

Placement of the chimney also plays a part in the likelyhood of fire spread. A center chimney obviously would be more likley to expose your home to a fire as there are 4 sides of the chimney "inside" the house. where as an end chimney usually has only one side against the house.

Any unlined chimney or chimney in disrepair needs to be corrected or lined in some manner. Often how that is done is local code. Other places of concern to keep clean is the shelf wher the firebox meets the chimney, where the damper is. Often crap winds up here thanks to gravity and a buildup of combustables is not a good thing. Of course our furry friends find chimney as a good place to raise a family and should be evicted asap. Also the clean out, many people think these are black holes and never fill, that is simply not true, they should be emptied periodically.

I would venture to guess if you have any questions you should seek a professional opinion on your specific chimney, that could be a sweep a firemarshall, building inspector, or a mason, for new construction, BEFORE you light that first match. Otherwise I may be coming to visit...........

 

[hooligan]

So would it be safe to say that a steel insulated chimney is safer that a unlined masonary chimney when talking about house fire danger?

I would say setting fire to your couch in the middle of the living room is safer than an unlined chimney, at least you know where the fire is..........

Unlined chimneys often have bad morter too and this leads to a direct path for the fire to enter your structure, this could be anywhere, in the attic, at a floor joint or in a wall, all places you cannot see until the fire is out of it's box.

So yeah, a lined chimney, again properly installed, is the best bet.

 

[keyman512us]

Would anyone be interested in attending a "seminar" on the subject?...Detail discussion and how to avoid the conditions leading up to chimney fires?

 

[Bill]

Hooks that's a great question and maybe should be a separate topic. I have wondered the same thing myself. Just how safe is SS chimney?

 

[Gooserider]

Just as a minor note, there was a second thread started that ought to tie into this one - the fire in the OP was found to be a murder / suicide - for reasons unspecified it appears the man killed his fiance, torched the place, then shot himself... tragic for sure, but not the result of a chimney fire...

twist to tragedy thread

Gooserider