should I trust the clearances listed in the manual

[n0042827]

I will keep you guys updated as I move forward with this.... as of now I have a call and e-mail to the dealer questioning a possible defect and I have ordered heat shields for the wall (although, I would rather not have to use them). The should be in on Monday.

BeGreen,
I have a question about draft if I pull the stove away from the corner more. To do this I would have to come out of the top of the stove with 2 offseting 45's and maybe 6" before it goes into a 90. What is your thought concerning draft with that set up? (I know it won't look that great but.....)

 

[n0042827]

oh yea.... just one more thing... I ran my stove this morning at 450 degrees and the walls got up to 195 degrees...... it is obvious I have to do something

 

[begreen]

Are those clearances supposed to be to a non combustible? I am currently shopping around for a stove, and I have noticed that jotul's clearances are a lot closer than all other manufacturers I have looked at. The f400 w/double wall pipe/rear heat shield to a non cumbstible is 7".

FWIW, I am running this stove in a corner setup with 15" clearances. This seems to work well.

 

[seaken]

I hope all who read this will not take offense. I do believe you all have the right to do as you please with your own homes and stoves, etc. But this thread illustrates why we dealers who hope to stay in business cannot justify selling low priced items and discounting prices. We are often criticized for having what many feel are prices that are too high. Yet, as each year goes by we must spend more and more time troubleshooting with our customers who believe the products they purchase from us are defective. By far the majority of my customers who complain to me believe their stove is defective and do not believe that there is some other reason for their dissatisfaction. This thread also assumes that the stove is defective. In the end, this may or may not be the case. But it takes time and effort to diagnose and come to a conclusion. And in no cases have I heard it suggested that the customer should pay for the time to perform the diagnoses.

My customers do not want to pay for troubleshooting and diagnoses. They expect things to be perfect, out of the box. In practice, I have rarely found the stove to be the defect. It does happen, of course. There have been a few times when I had to fix a defect in the stove. But this happens rarely in my operation. Perhaps other shops have had different results. But my point is that we cannot afford to lower our prices if we are to be available to troubleshoot and diagnose every stove we sell. The customer must pay for this service. It has to be included in the price of the stove.

If we cannot trust the clearances printed in the manual and the test procedures standardized by UL then we must be able to pay for the field testing needed to confirm the safety of the appliances, as installed according to the manufacturers specifications. We guarantee our work to meet the codes established for installation. These are written instructions provided by the manufacturer. How can we be held responsible for anything else? If we install according to the instructions we accept that it can be considered safe, as determined by test procedures established by standards organizations accepted by the building industry. Should we have to pay for the distrust and uneasyness of the American consumer? No. The consumer should pay. It is not immoral for us to charge for the services we provide. The next time we have to read how we dealers are gouging the public I hope we can recall this example of why our prices are higher than you expect.

Respectfully,
Sean Kennedy

 

[Shane]

Amen brother!

 

[Jimbob]

Just a couple of questions....
How big is the room where the stove sits?
How high is the ceiling in that room?

 

[begreen]

Slim, is this a dealer or self installation?

Can you post a couple photos of your installation? Front view and top views would be good. Maybe include a tape measure in one and point out where you are measuring the temp.

 

[n0042827]

my room is 32 x 16 and my ceiling is 7.5 feet high.

Sean,

I do not know who's fault it is that my walls are 195 degrees... nor do I really care... what I care about is finding the cause so I can fix it and keep my family safe.

Slim

 

[Jimbob]

Seems like your room is big enough, and the ceiling is high enough.
BTW, do you have a ceiling fan in that room? If so, try running it while the stove is firing to see if the air movement lowers the surface temps on the walls.

 

[n0042827]

thanks for your input... yes, I do have a ceiling fun and run it in reverse on low when the stove is going.

 

[Jimbob]

Try running it on forward on medium and let us know how that works.
What I suspect is happening is, in reverse, the fan is trying to push air DOWN the wall, counter-acting the upward convection currents causing the very hot air to be stalled near the stove. That's my best guess, anyway.
Let us know if changing the fan's direction helps....

 

[n0042827]

it's worth a try.... thanks a lot for the suggestion. I will let you know how it works out

 

[woodburn]

Slimbob, that is a great suggestion for Slim's particular problem he's facing here. Of course, you shouldn't have to run a fan with the intention of cooling things down in the Winter time. You should be able to reverse it and kick all that hot air down. Hopefully those heat shields correct the problem for you Slim. Can you post the photos as BeGreen suggested?

 

[tubby]

I spoke with the dealer a few days ago... he said "if you are with in the clearance shown in the manual you should be safe"... gee thanks!! I spoke with a Jotul rep from their Portland ME plant today. He said that their stoves are tested at 117 degrees plus abeint (187????).... I am no expert but, should I feel comfortable with that???

I plan on going to Sears to buy an infrared surface thermometer today after work. I will let you know my findings after I run the stove again. I am considering ways to get the stove out further from the corner (if I have too)... I appreciate the suggestions. I thought about using the rear vent or to continue with the top vent with two 45s... the problem there I already have one 90 going into the chimney about a foot and a half above the stove.

I am also considering wall coverings but.... I'd rather not if I don't have too. Would cement board and tile right over the Sheetrock without an air space be okay??

I think that you should listen to what your manual is telling you. After all... they have spent much money and time evaluating their products before placing them on the open market. Nothing is going to happen.. Trust me.

 

[seaken]

my room is 32 x 16 and my ceiling is 7.5 feet high.

Sean,

I do not know who's fault it is that my walls are 195 degrees... nor do I really care... what I care about is finding the cause so I can fix it and keep my family safe.

Slim

Understood. Not trying to pick a fight. Thing is, you're idea of what is safe differs from UL test labs. You have every right to question it and move the stove or take extra precaution. I was merely responding to the question of whether you should trust your manual. As an installer, we are protected by following the instructions in the manual carefully. Variations can sometimes cause more of an issue. As an example, one of our stoves does not list a clearance for "low-clearance" connector pipe, only single-wall pipe. It seems logical to think that one could reduce clearances to the pipe by using a listed "low-clearance" pipe system. But in testing, the low-clearance pipe actually caused the ceiling and wall to overheat. They do not state this in the manual. They simply do not list the use of low-clearance pipe. This is one example where a well-meaning user might decide to not trust the manual and install the low-clearance pipe anyway, trusting the pipe manufacturer's suggested clearances.

Your situation is different. Pulling the stove out away from the wall probably won't hurt anything, nor would installing an NFPA approved wall protector. But your question as to whether to trust the manual cannot be answered with anything less than a yes. Is it possible that there is an error? Sure. The manufacturer can address that. But we here cannot suggest that your manual is wrong.

Sean

 

[Jags]

Trust the manual? - YES.

But....With a stove temp of 350 and a wall temp of 170, I got ideas of what to do with the manual. My point is that the manual will not/can not account for all situations. Is something out of the ordinary here? Absolutely! If this was an install by a professional shop, the shop should follow the manual at a minimum. On the other hand, if the manual was followed for install, and the results are of a dangerous situation (yes, I believe that 170 degree wall temp with a stove temp of 350 IS dangerous), then the install is a failure. If its because of the manual, the shop, or the stove doesn't matter. The customer didn't write the manual, didn't install the stove and didn't manufacture the stove. Now how can he/she be expected to accept the failed install? I would definitely make the call to the dealer.

Sorry, for the rant. And I am not speaking of generalities, I am speaking of THIS particular install (assuming that it was a pro shop install as well).

But to Seans stance, if the stove was installed per the manual, that is really all they have to go by for the install. Its the "something out of the ordinary" that will prove the worth of the shop you selected for the install.

and if you trust the manual, with your wall temp of 170 at a stove temp of 350, when you crank that baby up to 600, SOMETHING WILL HAPPEN, and it probably ain't gonna be good. Trust me.

 

[n0042827]

I wish I would have used a different title for my post..... I really just want to find out what is causing the problem and address it. Thanks to all for your input. Your knowledge and assistance is appreciated.

 

[Shane]

I think we've all been watching too many lead paint stories on the news.