Significant creosote building with Jotul F100

[thecapegardener]

This is my first year burning with a wood stove. I did the install myself and I was running an oval shaped stove pipe up through my flu. However, I removed it because the Jotul wouldn't draw anymore. When I removed the stove pipe the creosote was considerable. Lots of black wet tar.

I expanded the opening in my flu and replaced the pipe with standard 6" stove pipe. Due to the angle of my chimney my stove pipe only extends up about 4' into the chimney.

I burned all day today and noticed the same black tar again dripping back down. I am using season wood, but I am pretty unhappy with this Jotul. It just doesn't put out that much heat.

Is the considerable creosote caused by the stove not burning hot enough? Is it because my stove pipe isn't long enough?

 

[NortheastAl]

It is not getting hot enough because the wood is most likely not as seasoned as you think. That's the reason for the creosote.

 

[Hearth Mistress]

I was annoyed with my stove when we first got it too, but thanks to the folks here, I quickly learned it was ME not the stove.

The wood we had was far from seasoned. We bought a moisture meter only to find that our so called seasoned wood was over 30%! We were able to use some pallets and eco bricks mixed with it to get the fire hot and the stove to throw heat until we had wood that was really seasoned.

If you have unseasoned wood, you probably hear it sizzle like bacon when it's burning, you can even sometimes see the steam or water bubbling out of the ends.

If you really think its your stove, not your wood, test it. Just go to the grocery store and buy a bundle of kiln dried wood (not the duraflame logs, real splits sold in bags) but CLEAN the chimney first as a nice hot fire in a creosote filled chimney will lead to a disaster for sure. If even burning kiln dried wood doesn't produce heat and/or creates a chimney full of creosote, then the fine folks here can troubleshoot your set up

 

[begreen]

Welcome. Sounds like you have poor draft due to dumping a short pipe into a large chimney throat. The stove requires at least 15 ft of 6" liner in order to have enough draw (draft) to work correctly. Drop a 6" stainless liner down that chimney, connect it to the F100 and you will think you have an entirely different stove. But you will need to have the chimney thoroughly cleaned first. Based on what you saw in that 4ft pipe, imagine what that cold smoke did to the inside of chimney. I suspect it isn't going to be pretty.

You need to get this fixed and make it safe. A rapid creosote buildup is a warning sign. Fix it soon. The end result could be a huge improvement in stove performance. Can you post a picture of the installation? And tell us what the inner dimensions of the chimney are.

 

[fossil]

Welcome to the forums. There are folks here who can help you a lot. Might have been easier if you'd have joined us before you installed this stove...but that's water under the bridge. The stove itself is one element of a system, which includes the stove and all of what makes up the flue to exhaust the products of combustion from the firebox to daylight. The whole system must be properly designed and installed for optimum performance. Just slapping a stove into a chimney probably won't heat your living space worth beans. Other very important factors are proper clearances and insulative protection which make it safe to have a fire inside the woodstove in the location you've chosen. From what I can glean from the limited information provided, your flue installation is sorely lacking. This is enough to make burning the stove a miserable experience...not the stove's fault in any way. The system isn't correct. A complete detailed description of the installation, accompanied by some photos would give us a terrific start on sorting this out with you and getting that stove safely doing what it's capable of doing. Rick

 

[thecapegardener]

Thanks for the feedback. Below are a few basic pictures. I drew out my fireplace shaft in the hopes that some of you may have better advice. Front clearances aren't an issue as I built the tile platform larger than needed, but my top and side clearances only allowed for the F100's small clearance requirements.

I didn't want to completely remove the flue plate in my chimney and my original pipe was given to me from the gentleman that sold me the stove. I bought the stove second hand, but it was brand new out of the box. I shouldn't have assumed that because he used it I wouldn't have any issues. After all, my town inspected and passed my pathetic install.

The oval shape was a poor design and restricted airflow causing heavy creosote buildup and draw problems. However, this pipe had the ability to bend sideways so I could work around the internal chimney design. This oval pipe was about 5' long and I had designed a steel damper plate that was secure to the flue plate opening with a hole for the oval pipe to slide through.

As I mentioned in my first post, I replaced this with a couple of pieces to 6" pipe. I also run the 90 degree elbow right out the back and up the 4' pipe and moved the stove into the firebox a few more inches (My original install had a 18" piece of 6" pipe straight the back to a square 90 degree oval shaped pipe mentioned above.

I'm guessing I should get the chimney lined. The one question I have on this would be whether I can fit a liner through the rectangular flue plate opening which is 6" wide. The reason I wanted to keep the flue plate opening is so that I can fabricate a damper plate and secure it to the flue plate to prevent cold air from entering the room when the stove isn't running. If I need an insulated liner what is the diameter of a 6" wide liner with insulation wrapped around it? I could always cut out more of the flue plate to accommodate the insulated liner diameter and still leave enough of the flue plate to secure my damper cover.

This is an internal chimney and I will search this site for some recommended places to get a liner kit. If anyone has advice on liners I'd love to hear it along with any advice on my current setup.

 

[Adios Pantalones]

tell us what you mean by "seasoned wood". As a new burner, you have heard that it is important I am sure, but when you buy something that a supplier calls "seasoned", it is likely not dry enough.

There may be install issues as well, but understanding the fuel is a critical point.

 

[jeff_t]

Typically, the entire damper assembly is removed, and the you can fabricate a simple sheet metal plate to block off the opening. Search 'block off plate', and you should be able to read for hours.

 

[mellow]

Open your door after putting in a fresh load on hot coals, if you can hear sizzling your wood is not seasoned.

 

[begreen]

You definitely need a liner for the stove. The lack of a block off plate is compounding the issue. You are essentially trying to run the stove on 4 ft of pipe with the hope that the chimney will draft strong enough to not reverse draft on you. That is a risky gamble, one that could prove lethal if draft reversal occurred in the middle of a cold night. It's also going to make the stove run like crap. Draft is the engine of the stove. The good news is that with a proper flue the stove will be a different and much better heater. It should not be run as currently setup.

How tall is the chimney? Is it internal or on an external wall? For liners you have options. If there is 6" clear at the damper throat then an uninsulated liner will pass through with some gentle assistance. It may require slightly ovalizing the liner for the bottom 2-3'. You can reshape it to round at the elbow or tee connecting to the stove.

Here is an article on damper sealing block-off plates:
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/wiki/Why_damper_seal_is_needed/

 

[chimneylinerjames]

You need a chimney liner!! 100%. This will help your creosote dripping issue inside the fireplace, improve your draft, you will have a hotter fire and it will be safe! Do not burn it as is, that is dangerous. Install the liner with insulation, it keeps the smoke warm, which gives you better draft, and this way it is UL listed.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

Thanks for the feedback. Below are a few basic pictures. I drew out my fireplace shaft in the hopes that some of you may have better advice. Front clearances aren't an issue as I built the tile platform larger than needed, but my top and side clearances only allowed for the F100's small clearance requirements.

I didn't want to completely remove the flue plate in my chimney and my original pipe was given to me from the gentleman that sold me the stove. I bought the stove second hand, but it was brand new out of the box. I shouldn't have assumed that because he used it I wouldn't have any issues. After all, my town inspected and passed my pathetic install.

The oval shape was a poor design and restricted airflow causing heavy creosote buildup and draw problems. However, this pipe had the ability to bend sideways so I could work around the internal chimney design. This oval pipe was about 5' long and I had designed a steel damper plate that was secure to the flue plate opening with a hole for the oval pipe to slide through.

As I mentioned in my first post, I replaced this with a couple of pieces to 6" pipe. I also run the 90 degree elbow right out the back and up the 4' pipe and moved the stove into the firebox a few more inches (My original install had a 18" piece of 6" pipe straight the back to a square 90 degree oval shaped pipe mentioned above.

I'm guessing I should get the chimney lined. The one question I have on this would be whether I can fit a liner through the rectangular flue plate opening which is 6" wide. The reason I wanted to keep the flue plate opening is so that I can fabricate a damper plate and secure it to the flue plate to prevent cold air from entering the room when the stove isn't running. If I need an insulated liner what is the diameter of a 6" wide liner with insulation wrapped around it? I could always cut out more of the flue plate to accommodate the insulated liner diameter and still leave enough of the flue plate to secure my damper cover.

This is an internal chimney and I will search this site for some recommended places to get a liner kit. If anyone has advice on liners I'd love to hear it along with any advice on my current setup.

Welcome to the forum gardener.

Some great advice on the chimney with a liner. However, reading your posts I'm seeing what almost all new wood burners think. First, it is usually the fault of the stove. Here, you do have a chimney problem but when you get that problem fixed, I predict you will have another problem. What other problem? More creosote.

Someone asked about your wood but you did not answer. Plain and simple, even without the chimney problem, you will have more creosote because of the fuel you are burning. Believe it or not, but the fuel is about 90% of the equation when it comes to burning wood. For sure one needs a good stove, and you have one. The chimney problem is being addressed. Now you also need to address that fuel problem. Did you buy this wood? Did you cut it? What type of wood is it? How long since that wood was split and then stacked out in the wind so it can dry.

Until we learn how to burn water, burning green wood or wood that is not dry enough (on the inside of the wood, not the outside) will cause creosote. In addition, you will not like the stove. But put some good dry wood (at least a year in the stack for most but some needs up to 3 years) in that stove and you will be a happy camper

 

[thecapegardener]

Welcome to the forum gardener.

Some great advice on the chimney with a liner. However, reading your posts I'm seeing what almost all new wood burners think. First, it is usually the fault of the stove. Here, you do have a chimney problem but when you get that problem fixed, I predict you will have another problem. What other problem? More creosote.

Someone asked about your wood but you did not answer. Plain and simple, even without the chimney problem, you will have more creosote because of the fuel you are burning. Believe it or not, but the fuel is about 90% of the equation when it comes to burning wood. For sure one needs a good stove, and you have one. The chimney problem is being addressed. Now you also need to address that fuel problem. Did you buy this wood? Did you cut it? What type of wood is it? How long since that wood was split and then stacked out in the wind so it can dry.

Until we learn how to burn water, burning green wood or wood that is not dry enough (on the inside of the wood, not the outside) will cause creosote. In addition, you will not like the stove. But put some good dry wood (at least a year in the stack for most but some needs up to 3 years) in that stove and you will be a happy camper

Regarding the wood...I'm burning what was sold to me as seasoned 1 year. I do hear a little hissing on some pieces, but I split it for kindling and the wood breaks apart very easily (almost exploding apart vs tearing the wood away). My intention is to buy more wood shortly for next season and stack on pallets and dry until next fall giving me 2 year seasoned wood to burn. Being my first year I bought what I was told was seasoned, but I hadn't established any wood inventory. I know wood is really important, but until I find a quality vendor I'll have to continue sampling from different places.

I am purchasing the liner kit today. I reply back with an update when it's all done with some pics. Hopefully, this will help others. Thanks everyone for the feedback. It's very beneficial.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

Sounds like you are thinking good. Really good for the 2 years. The hissing is something you don't want to hear or see for sure. If I were buying this spring for next winter, I would try to order it with small splits. If they aren't small, then get them split again. Stack them in the windiest spot you have. Some sun is excellent too but wind is the most important. Do not try to stack really neat and tight. You want to stack a little bit loose for the air circulation. Stacking this way you also don't want to stack very high else you might have some tip over problems. And don't stack against a building or fence if possible.

And once again, I'd still advise against oak or locust. I'd try for maple or beech or ash. Ash would actually be toward the top of the list. If you can get soft maple, that will dry wonderfully in 6 months. Hard maple needs a bit more for sure. And don't run yourself ragged trying to find a quality vendor. If you find 1 in 100 that is a lot. Really sad, but that is the way with firewood and I understand why they can't keep a supply to sell good dry wood. It would take too much space and too much work, so they just tell everyone it is great.

I know of a few sellers around here and they all tell the same stories. I really laugh when they come across a woods that someone has logged off. I know of one fellow who got the tree tops 5 years after it was logged. Naturally, he told his customers it was 5 years seasoned. Ha! Only the ends have dried. Shoot, I got some 10 year old oak last December! It is wet! I won't burn that for 2-3 years for sure. Won't know for certain until I split it and that will be done as soon as this danged snow leaves and it warms a bit. lol But then again, we have enough wood on hand to last through the 2018-2019 winter and possibly one more. Ah, I love burning dry wood.

Be sure to check out the Wood Shed part of hearth.com There is much information there from some really good folks; both male and female.

Keep smiling!
Dennis

 

[mfglickman]

I see lots of wood advertised here as 6 months or 1 year seasoned - but when pressed the sellers will usually say that the tree was downed 6-12 months ago but the wood is cut and split to order. Unfortunately it does not matter when the tree came down, it matters when it was split and stacked...

 

[Backwoods Savage]

You nailed it Mary.

 

[BrotherBart]

The F100 is a sweet burner into a properly sized liner. I burned the one in my basement office one season into a thimble into a 7X11 clay tiled flue and was extremely disappointed with it. The next fall before the season I lined the flue with a liner and it was like buying a whole new stove. One sweet burning lil wood stove.

Another advantage you will have with your setup is that the baffle in the stove is easy to remove. You just take it out and brush the crud from the chimney right down into the stove and scoop it out. No need to disconnect the liner/pipe to clean the chimney. Just be careful putting the baffle back in and make sure you get it right or it will fall down on the fire. Don't ask how I know that.

 

[mellow]

I would ask for Maple,Gum, or Cherry to burn for next year due to seasoning quicker, buy Oak but plan on burning it 2-3 years down the road.

Once you get that settled then you can buy the other toys that go with wood burning like saws and splitters and do it all yourself.

 

[begreen]

Good to hear that you are going with the liner. How tall will it be?

Also, do you have good smoke and CO detectors in the house? If not, I'd invest in those also.

 

[thecapegardener]

Good to hear that you are going with the liner. How tall will it be?

Also, do you have good smoke and CO detectors in the house? If not, I'd invest in those also.

Yes, I have CO2 detectors on all levels throughout the house. I am not exactly sure on the liner length. I'm not real fond of climbing on the roof so my neighbor offered to do it. I suspect is either 25' or 30'.

 

[thecapegardener]

I would ask for Maple,Gum, or Cherry to burn for next year due to seasoning quicker, buy Oak but plan on burning it 2-3 years down the road.

Once you get that settled then you can buy the other toys that go with wood burning like saws and splitters and do it all yourself.

I am all set on my tools. It would seem I put the cart before the horse. Between my Stihl farm boss and my neighbors 35 ton splitter I have everything I need. Frankly, I am still young > 40 enough that I prefer my Fiskars hand splitter to do all my splitting. Good workout.

 

[begreen]

Good deal. That is nice of your neighbor to help. Make sure he stays safe and no beer until the job is done.

The reason I asked the height earlier was because with a tall chimney you probably could drop down to a 5.5" liner to make it easier to get past the damper opening. It would require a 6" to 5.5" adapter on the end. With 25-30' of liner I would probably exercise this option.

 

[thecapegardener]

The F100 is a sweet burner into a properly sized liner. I burned the one in my basement office one season into a thimble into a 7X11 clay tiled flue and was extremely disappointed with it. The next fall before the season I lined the flue with a liner and it was like buying a whole new stove. One sweet burning lil wood stove.

Another advantage you will have with your setup is that the baffle in the stove is easy to remove. You just take it out and brush the crud from the chimney right down into the stove and scoop it out. No need to disconnect the liner/pipe to clean the chimney. Just be careful putting the baffle back in and make sure you get it right or it will fall down on the fire. Don't ask how I know that.

Rather than mess around with trying to take my entire damper out I am leaning towards just using my sawsall to widen the mouth of the damper opening enough to handle a 6" diameter liner with insulation. My damper opening is 6" X ~12" so I am thinking of opening it to about 9" X 12". Any thoughts on this?

Then I will build the damper plate and attach it to the masonry inside the chimney opening (thanks to those that posted those links above to the damper plates).

I am really looking forward to seeing what this stove can really produce with the right liner and wood. Surprisingly, I cut my heating oil burn rate by 50% this winter using the stove in it's current condition and setup. I'm eager to see how much more I can cut out.

 

[thecapegardener]

Good deal. That is nice of your neighbor to help. Make sure he stays safe and no beer until the job is done.

The reason I asked the height earlier was because with a tall chimney you probably could drop down to a 5.5" liner to make it easier to get past the damper opening. It would require a 6" to 5.5" adapter on the end. With 25-30' of liner I would probably exercise this option.

My plan was to use a T adapter because I was setting my stove out in front of my firebox to catch the radiant heat off the sides and top. The T-adapter has a 10" nose that gives me the clearance I need to still place the F100 out on the tile. If I am going to do this, I'm going to do it right. Good liner with insulation, good damper plate, good wood.

 

[BrotherBart]

Yeah that is the usual route. Cut out just enough of the damper frame to allow the liner through. If you go with a 5.5" inch liner with a chimney that tall it will draft just fine.