Simple mathematics.

[Niko]

So I called a hearth company to come over and look at my existing fireplace setup take measurements and give me a quote on a blaze king princess including install and liner. I put the original pdf in text format because I don't want to give any direct negative advertisement. The feeling expressed below are mine and mine alone. Some might agree some might not. But hear it goes.

I am ready to purchase I have my money ready and decided to go with a Blaze King Princess insert after months of research. I called several companies up but not many are local to me in Dutchess county. Found a authorized Blaze king dealer about 30 miles away, over the phone they expressed they need to send someone to do measurements and make sure the Princess fits and works with me setup. So on Tuesday 3:30pm a younger gentlemen shows to my house and all dressed up nice like he's going to a interview wearing a nice pair of dress shoes. Now mind you I am paying 108 dollars for this proposal. I already had my smoke dragon pulled out and ready for his measurements. Their was insulation wrapped around the insert but the gentlemen had to take it down to get measurements. When taking it down he could not get it back up(lol) so I had to throw it away. He took measurements of the fireplace and hearth, no measurement where done that I saw of the flew diameter and chimney length. I asked for a professional proposal/estimate that would state what is needed how the work is done. If demo is needed the length of liner and type. The original estimate in my house was just a number roughly 5000 grand. Now is it just me or is this a magical number. whether I am getting the insert for 3500 or 2900 the others numbers just change, so pretty much the ending number is 5grand. O and they want an extra 530 to insulate the liner, when I can get a pre insulated liner for 680(6inch liner). Better metal and parts at woodlanddirect.com. Simple mathematics 516 liner + 530 insulation=1046. So 1046-680=366 more. WOW. Now onto my favorite part the installation now for those who are in the trade installing your probably not going to like this but O well money doesn't grow on trees. I was told the job would take 4-6 hrs which. the longest part would be taking out the dampner plate. You can also see on this proposal their is no mention on block off plate.

2 man crew
Installation 1418 dollars! So 1418/6hrs is 236 hr
1416/4hrs is 354 hr

that's why they all tell you they don't do work per hr they do it per job.

In America everything is done the year/month/week/day/hr/min/sec.(TIME)

I do very well for myself but I cannot afford 354 hr for LABORER work. you want 30-50 hr ok. But anything above that you better hanging upside down 500 feet in the air welding skyscrapers in NYC just to put it in perspective.


from the company.


Niko,


Thank you for considering our store to satisfy your heating needs. Below you will find both options
presented at the time of our in home consultation.



Option 1: Blaze King Princess insert with black door and standard surround panel installed with a 6” diameter
Stainless steel liner system. This option also includes an 18 x 48 hearth extension board for clearance
purposes, glass cleaner, and a pair of stove gloves. Total with 10% promotion is: $4982.60 without tax



Upgrade the effectiveness and efficiency with an insulation kit for $527.14= $5509.74 without tax
Option 2: Same as above minus glass cleaner and stove gloves: $4947.60
Unit- $$2617.00
Black door-$320.00
Shroud-$317.00
Total: $3254.00
-$325.40 10% off promotion
$2928.60
installation labor- $1418.00
Liner Material - $516.00
Hearth extension -$85.00
Glass cleaner- $10.00
Gloves- $ 25.00
Total $4982.60

 

[pen]

So, it sounds like you'll be doing the installation yourself?

 

[prezes13]

I think that's a lot of money. My dealer wanted $600 for a basic install and I was thinking he out of his mind.

 

[mol1jb]

Ya that installation price is crazy. If you don't want to do it yourself maybe buy the unit from them and look around for a more reasonable installer.

 

[bholler]

i want to know how they gave you a price without measuring the length of the chimney looking down it or anything. The over all price might not be out of line depending on the type of liner and the length of the liner but none of that is specified and yes the install labor price is ridiculous but I think it is high to cover the lack of info to get a real estimate. Either way I would find another installer. Your math is slightly flawed due to the fact that that pay per hour probably needs to be split2 or 3 ways still a little high but not that ridiculous

 

[TradEddie]

I had to swallow a similar quote for my insert. You're also not just paying for the labor, you're paying for the tools they can bring to the job. I was considering doing it myself, but when I saw the effort it took to remove that damper, requiring power tools that I don't have, and would never need again, I was happy. Also, I think that installing a liner is a job anyone could do well - the second time. First time around it will take you much much longer than the pros.
Get another quote, I did and the second was a thousand dollars less. Simple math.

TE

 

[Niko]

I stated in the post 2 man crew thats what they would send and its gets better the sub contract the work out. My math is not flawed its what im paying out how they divide it out is up to them. Not rediculous, Wow man you got to be kidding me right? You must have make some serious cash to just say 354 dollars a hr is not stupid.

This is just down right rip off.

 

[BrotherBart]

Just say no. They gave you the starting price for negotiation.

They want the job, they talk to you. This ain't the shelf price in a grocery store.

 

[BrotherBart]

Every stove dealer on the planet is a small business. Heading into the dead part of the sales year. Why does everybody think that a quoted price for an install is gospel?

You spend weeks negotiating with a car dealer that needs the money a hell of a lot less than a stove shop does.

Applies to liner installers and their daddies too.

 

[Niko]

Basic and very basic tools and I own them all. The only thing I would rent is one of those heavy duty dolly for 50 bucks. Yes i can do the install with a friend im just venting at the fact that these prices are just retarted. I would like to get it installed professionally but i never would of thought in a million years these type of prices.

Can you please post your prices and what the install included. My roof is very simple to get up chimney is very easy to access you domt even need a ladder, chimney is around chest height. House is a raised ranch so the pitch is not steep, very easy to walk on.

 

[Niko]

I know that price has room. Just putting out the first numbers and how unprofessional the proposal was.

 

[danimal1968]

Basic and very basic tools and I own them all. The only thing I would rent is one of those heavy duty dolly for 50 bucks. Yes i can do the install with a friend im just venting at the fact that these prices are just retarted. I would like to get it installed professionally but i never would of thought in a million years these type of prices.

Can you please post your prices and what the install included. My roof is very simple to get up chimney is very easy to access you domt even need a ladder, chimney is around chest height. House is a raised ranch so the pitch is not steep, very easy to walk on.

If you don't like the price, don't pay it. That's your power as a consumer. If the price is out of line you should be able to find someone willing to do it for less. No need to get upset about it. In fact the sellers want you to be emotional about it - that leads to poor decision making.

By the way, if you get them down to a lower per hour charge, watch out for the job taking a lot longer. When people get paid on a time basis there is an inherent incentive to be inefficient which is why here in America people are increasingly using other ways to determine prices when contracts are formed.

 

[BurnIt13]

Sounds like Massachusetts prices for BK's without any installation! You seem very analytical and have thought this through. You already know the parts you need to buy....is this something you would consider doing yourself?

I imagine the blockoff plate would be the most difficult.

 

[TradEddie]

Funny, I looked back and realized one of my very first posts here, after lurking for a long time was titled "STICKER SHOCK! How much should I expect to pay for installation of a new insert?"
The first quote I got was $1100 for parts, $1200 for labor and didn't include disposal . I went to another shop, their installer charged $1500 parts and labor for installation of 6" insulated flexible SS liner, installation of insert, and removal of old insert. The second place had the stove I wanted on floor model clearance, so there was no decision to be made. The installers did an acceptable job, it took two of them about 5 hours (also the time to collect the stove from the store, and dispose of my slammer). I added a block-off plate myself later, I'm not sure it makes any difference when using the stove, but it makes a difference reducing heat loss when it's not in use, which is much more of the time.

TE

 

[DougA]

I know that price has room. Just putting out the first numbers and how unprofessional the proposal was.

The reality is that the vast majority of people would not have the knowledge you have to question the quote. Most people will simply say YES.
The guy will go down if they are hungry and not negotiate if they are busy. No harm done in getting multiple quotes. That being said, it appears you are already not liking this company, so best to move on.
In my experience, first contact says it all and if you've got bad vibes, they rarely improve with age.

 

[bholler]

like I said before I think the labor is high an there is no description of the work to be done. We don't do broken down estimates but we do completely spell out what will be done. We say the type of liner and type of insulation weather we are breaking out liners or not ect. It looks like a very unprofessional estimate and I would probably not use them. But their overall price if they are insulating and doing block off plat is not to bad depending on the type of liner. PS our labor averages $800 for a liner install plus some for stove install if we are delivering it and putting it in place.

 

[smokedragon]

installation labor- $1418.00

If they told you 6- 8 hours, this is too much for labor, period. Don't pay it.

But their overall price if they are insulating and doing block off plat is not to bad depending on the type of liner.

It doesn't matter what type of liner, etc......that is a different part of the estimate. This charge is only for labor. If they can do it in six hours, it doesn't matter what they are doing in those six hours, it is too much.

 

[bholler]

If you read my post i said the labor price is to high but overall it is not that bad depending on the details. And at 8 hrs with 2 guys that makes it $88 an hour without taking out what ever cut the stove shop is taking and all the fasteners adhesive ect that is not shown else where so I am assuming they lumped it into labor (which is not right) so it actually may not be that bad. But still a bad unprofessional estimate.

 

[smokedragon]

But still a bad unprofessional estimate.

+1

I do agree with your post that says the poor estimate should scare him off as much as the cost.

 

[Ram 1500 with an axe...]

I purchased my stove and liner from the store......a friend helped me to install, it took less than 3 hours before the first fire was lit. It is not Difficult to do. I say install it yourself and keep looking for a better price on just the stove and liner...

 

[pen]

It is not Difficult to do

That depends on many variables.

 

[bholler]

I agree totally pen. Many liners are not that hard and a good diyer with a good knowledge of the codes and procedures can do allot of them. But there are also allot that are not that simple and I would say would be difficult for a homeowner to do correctly. And as far as the tools if every thing goes the was it should yeah the tools are pretty basic but we take a whole van full of tools for a reason sometimes things don't go the way they should.

 

[Ashful]

A few here may remember the $10k estimate I received for a liner install 16 months ago...

That was based on the assertion that there was wood timber in my flue, based on an inspection the installer claimed to have done, but never really did per their report. When I later proved (and made them come back to confirm) there was no wood framing in the flue, they submitted a new proposal for the same cost, stating other reasons why it should cost what they claim. I had someone else come out and do the same install for somewhere in the neighborhood of $2000 (I truly don't remember the exact price).

These prices are high, due to the difficulty of this particular chimney (50 feet up on a standing-seam metal roof, and a very large slate-topped chimney). That doesn't diminish the demonstration that it's good to get a few different quotes.

 

[Niko]

They charged me 108 for a proposal/estimate. Im getting my money back first. Lack of my experience to pay it. If your business doesn't do a descriptive write up shame on you, your out to rip off the customer. Its protects me so that company doesnt say where doing description job A and walk away doing job F.

They never even mentioned about getting my chimney cleaned before the install, never mentioned lock of plate top or bottom, never mentioned about taking my old stove, never mentioned of garbage removal etc.

Thats why i expect a professional proposal so in the end i don't get bent over.

Yes i will probably do this myself with a friend, but at first didnt mind to pay someone for the process. It seems in my area the companies are all thieves.

Your telling me 500 dollars is not good money for 2 guys and 5 hrs work? folk man 50 bucks a hr per person is great money.

 

[bholler]

No 500 is not good for 2 guys with a truck business insurance tools ect. Also you need to take into account the driving time the prep time the cleanup time at the end of the day and lots of other things as well as what ever they are paying the stove shop for the referral. . I agree that their labor is high and there estimate is not professional but $500 is not enough unless they can do at least 2 a day which we wont schedule due to the unknown. Some liners take 3 hours most take 6 some take way more. And your point about cleaning is a big one allot of guys don't do it and it is very important.