Smoke leakage, and other questions

[2drx4]

I had this England's Stove Works 32-NC installed two years ago. I probably should have done more research about it, and how the install would go, etc, before doing it, but so be it. There's a stainless liner in the masonry chimney, and it's about 20' long, the chimney has a cap about 3' above the roof ridgeline, the black pipe is double wall, this was a professional installation and it was WETT inspected.



My problem is that occasionally it likes to leak smoke from the black double wall pipe, particularly on the horizontal run. Some of this I learned to deal with by general experience, some still leaves me perplexed. In general it would like to do this on start up or reloads if you leave the door open or cracked. The solution was to not leave the door open for very long. Also if the chimney started to experience too much buildup it would do this more, so cleaning it would help. However it's done it just when running the stove with the damper full open (door closed) trying to get it up to temperature, in which case if I damp it down I can stop it from leaking, but that isn't ideal.

Any ideas what I'm doing wrong? Or is there other factors at play? It drafts really well most of the time, sometimes I'm fighting the cold stack phenomena when lighting it, but I learned to use dry pine kindling and a propane torch.

 

[kennyp2339]

Weakened draft is causing the leak, If you have a very tight house and have appliances that are using conditioned house air the make up air has to come from somewhere, the stove with the door closed is functioning but as soon as the door is open the house will start trying to find the easiest air to fill the void its experiencing. You can try to trade off the on black 90deg elbow for (2) 45deg elbows and a shorter vertical riser to reduce the turbulence caused by the double 90's the smoke is going through, you can add a piece of class a chimney to the end of your chimney via anchor plate to get extra height.
If you have anything thats using house air, furnace, bathroom vent, dryer, radon air pump, heat pump turn them off and see if that reduces the air pressure issue, also do air sealing upstairs, any open holes say from the top floor into the attic will cause an air pressure issue by taking that upstairs air, venting through the attic and now air has to come in from somewhere else.

 

[stoveliker]

It would help replacing the 90 deg elbow with two 45 degs.

 

[kennyp2339]

It would help replacing the 90 deg elbow with two 45 degs.

Ha I'm a faster typer then you!!

 

[stoveliker]

Ha I'm a faster typer then you!!

Lol. Yes. And more verbose ;-)

But it's good to explain. Well done.

 

[neverstop]

Is it a basement install?

 

[MR. GLO]

I had this England's Stove Works 32-NC installed two years ago. I probably should have done more research about it, and how the install would go, etc, before doing it, but so be it. There's a stainless liner in the masonry chimney, and it's about 20' long, the chimney has a cap about 3' above the roof ridgeline, the black pipe is double wall, this was a professional installation and it was WETT inspected.

View attachment 291006

My problem is that occasionally it likes to leak smoke from the black double wall pipe, particularly on the horizontal run. Some of this I learned to deal with by general experience, some still leaves me perplexed. In general it would like to do this on start up or reloads if you leave the door open or cracked. The solution was to not leave the door open for very long. Also if the chimney started to experience too much buildup it would do this more, so cleaning it would help. However it's done it just when running the stove with the damper full open (door closed) trying to get it up to temperature, in which case if I damp it down I can stop it from leaking, but that isn't ideal.

Any ideas what I'm doing wrong? Or is there other factors at play? It drafts really well most of the time, sometimes I'm fighting the cold stack phenomena when lighting it, but I learned to use dry pine kindling and a propane torch.

If the smoke is anywhere near startup
Then preheat with a heater. Make a plywood template for the door and use a small cheap space heater ....The torch is too slow. Try burning kindlin first for 10 minutes or so then add the logs and see if same results.

If the smoke is after 30 minutes in a burn I'd try a wind cap next then switch the pipes.


Changing the pipes does change the draft but this could make your burn times go down...so I wouldn't change the pipes until after you preheat all the time on a cold stove to see if you smoke issues go away....some stoves actually require the door closed or you will get smoke....but cold pipe syndrome is common and easy fix.

The space heater trick will make life better. Get an electronic flue probe and you will see how cold you pipe actually gets and understand it better. It's 16 degrees out and my flue is 55 degrees and I'm not burning today and it's empty stove. So I put space heater on for 5 minutes to get to 80 or 90 degrees in pipe and no smoke leakage.

double wall pipe is a plus when the coals burn down. Keep us posted.

 

[2drx4]

Weakened draft is causing the leak, If you have a very tight house and have appliances that are using conditioned house air the make up air has to come from somewhere, the stove with the door closed is functioning but as soon as the door is open the house will start trying to find the easiest air to fill the void its experiencing. You can try to trade off the on black 90deg elbow for (2) 45deg elbows and a shorter vertical riser to reduce the turbulence caused by the double 90's the smoke is going through, you can add a piece of class a chimney to the end of your chimney via anchor plate to get extra height.
If you have anything thats using house air, furnace, bathroom vent, dryer, radon air pump, heat pump turn them off and see if that reduces the air pressure issue, also do air sealing upstairs, any open holes say from the top floor into the attic will cause an air pressure issue by taking that upstairs air, venting through the attic and now air has to come in from somewhere else.

I don't think my house is overly tight, it's 1964 construction without permits. That said, I've done some work to make it a lot better (new windows, doors, attic insulation, basement insulation). Also I fixed the attic access so it doesn't leak copious amounts of air, so that's probably out as an issue. The furnace might have contributed to the problem, there is some holes in the return side ducting so it will pull some air from the room the stove is in, but it still can do this with the furnace not running.

I'm conceptually struggling with the door open versus closed issue. The stove does not have an outside air intake kit, initially I was going to buy one (or make it), but the installer cautioned against it as it could cause issues on windy days. So to me it's pulling the same air if the door is open or closed, there's only a difference in volume. I guess writing that out explains it though, there's going to be too much air drawn, lowering the pressure in the room, and that air has to go somewhere so it pressurizes the chimney, if I have that right.

There's no other fans on, air handles, heat pumps, etc.

Is this also partially a temperature thing maybe? It can be extremely cold here, -30 to -40 is normal enough, average days are 5 to 15 degrees Fahrenheit (making me think by converting that).

Is it a basement install?

Yes, in my mechanical room. Which is a plus and minus. The main reason I put it there was the masonry chimney was already in place. But it does a decent job of heating the basement and the upstairs through convection. I've wondered about trying to make it distribute heat better, but that might be another topic.

If the smoke is anywhere near startup
Then preheat with a heater. Make a plywood template for the door and use a small cheap space heater ....The torch is too slow. Try burning kindlin first for 10 minutes or so then add the logs and see if same results.

If the smoke is after 30 minutes in a burn I'd try a wind cap next then switch the pipes.


Changing the pipes does change the draft but this could make your burn times go down...so I wouldn't change the pipes until after you preheat all the time on a cold stove to see if you smoke issues go away....some stoves actually require the door closed or you will get smoke....but cold pipe syndrome is common and easy fix.

The space heater trick will make life better. Get an electronic flue probe and you will see how cold you pipe actually gets and understand it better. It's 16 degrees out and my flue is 55 degrees and I'm not burning today and it's empty stove. So I put space heater on for 5 minutes to get to 80 or 90 degrees in pipe and no smoke leakage.

double wall pipe is a plus when the coals burn down. Keep us posted.

This stove says to not burn for prolonged periods with the door open, which I assumed was because it would get hot enough to damage the secondary air tubes if you did. It may be for smoke issues too.

Preheating it with a space heater seems, umm, like a pain. I could try starting much smaller fires first. Sometimes it works fine, sometimes it doesn't though. I build all my fires top down, I learned it just didn't work building them the "normal" way in my first season. I don't have a thermometer in the pipe, I just go by the one on the top of the stove to give me an idea of how hot the gases must be. I have an IR temp gun, but of course that doesn't work on double wall pipe. So I guess a flu probe might be worthwhile, but I don't really want to spend a bunch of money on something if it doesn't provide me with useful data.

Maybe I should investigate how windy it is when I'm having issues too.

 

[2drx4]

Also, on chimney buildup...

This is what it looked like before I cleaned it last time (2 days ago). It's a cell phone picture taken by sticking my hand in the masonry stack and pointing it up the liner.



Was this in any way at the point it needed to be cleaned? I only cleaned it because I had so much smoke leakage the day before, which was what prompted me to join and post. Granted you can't see up to the top, but would it be much worse up higher as the gases cool?

This is after cleaning:



Is this adequate cleaning?

The black double wall pipe looked like this after cleaning:



No before picture, but there was only maybe a 1/4" of fuzzy stuff around the outside.

 

[neverstop]

Also, on chimney buildup...

This is what it looked like before I cleaned it last time (2 days ago). It's a cell phone picture taken by sticking my hand in the masonry stack and pointing it up the liner.

View attachment 291081

Was this in any way at the point it needed to be cleaned? I only cleaned it because I had so much smoke leakage the day before, which was what prompted me to join and post. Granted you can't see up to the top, but would it be much worse up higher as the gases cool?

This is after cleaning:

View attachment 291082

Is this adequate cleaning?

The black double wall pipe looked like this after cleaning:

View attachment 291083

No before picture, but there was only maybe a 1/4" of fuzzy stuff around the outside.

This is an interior Chimney right? Is liner insulated? Also id of liner correct fit the stove? 6" I'm assuming

 

[MR. GLO]

I don't think my house is overly tight, it's 1964 construction without permits. That said, I've done some work to make it a lot better (new windows, doors, attic insulation, basement insulation). Also I fixed the attic access so it doesn't leak copious amounts of air, so that's probably out as an issue. The furnace might have contributed to the problem, there is some holes in the return side ducting so it will pull some air from the room the stove is in, but it still can do this with the furnace not running.

I'm conceptually struggling with the door open versus closed issue. The stove does not have an outside air intake kit, initially I was going to buy one (or make it), but the installer cautioned against it as it could cause issues on windy days. So to me it's pulling the same air if the door is open or closed, there's only a difference in volume. I guess writing that out explains it though, there's going to be too much air drawn, lowering the pressure in the room, and that air has to go somewhere so it pressurizes the chimney, if I have that right.

There's no other fans on, air handles, heat pumps, etc.

Is this also partially a temperature thing maybe? It can be extremely cold here, -30 to -40 is normal enough, average days are 5 to 15 degrees Fahrenheit (making me think by converting that).



Yes, in my mechanical room. Which is a plus and minus. The main reason I put it there was the masonry chimney was already in place. But it does a decent job of heating the basement and the upstairs through convection. I've wondered about trying to make it distribute heat better, but that might be another topic.



This stove says to not burn for prolonged periods with the door open, which I assumed was because it would get hot enough to damage the secondary air tubes if you did. It may be for smoke issues too.

Preheating it with a space heater seems, umm, like a pain. I could try starting much smaller fires first. Sometimes it works fine, sometimes it doesn't though. I build all my fires top down, I learned it just didn't work building them the "normal" way in my first season. I don't have a thermometer in the pipe, I just go by the one on the top of the stove to give me an idea of how hot the gases must be. I have an IR temp gun, but of course that doesn't work on double wall pipe. So I guess a flu probe might be worthwhile, but I don't really want to spend a bunch of money on something if it doesn't provide me with useful data.

Maybe I should investigate how windy it is when I'm having issues too.

A flue probe is essential tool especially for double wall. Stt at startup will not help much.

In your situation you must preheat...so it's a hairdryer for 10 minutes (try with empty no ash stove), draft collar (expensive and costs on electricity), candle for a long time etc or 5 minutes with a heater with plywood face and shelf (best way so no ash blowback).... and then zero smoke on startup...put good kindlin in and small pieces of dry ready to burn wood. Use a firestarter.

What is the split wood moisture content of your wood and type?
And or how long has your wood been split and covered?

 

[begreen]

Some folks put a couple of thick candles in the stove 15 minutes before startup to establish draft. It's more convenient if it works. I think that plus switching out the 90º turn to a pair of 45s in an offset will help quite a bit by eliminating most of the horizontal run.

 

[2drx4]

This is an interior Chimney right? Is liner insulated? Also id of liner correct fit the stove? 6" I'm assuming

It's a 6" stainless liner in a masonry chimney, which is the correct size. My understanding is no insulation is necessary for that. As I'd said before, it was professionally installed and WETT inspected.

A flue probe is essential tool especially for double wall. Stt at startup will not help much.

In your situation you must preheat...so it's a hairdryer for 10 minutes (try with empty no ash stove), draft collar (expensive and costs on electricity), candle for a long time etc or 5 minutes with a heater with plywood face and shelf (best way so no ash blowback).... and then zero smoke on startup...put good kindlin in and small pieces of dry ready to burn wood. Use a firestarter.

What is the split wood moisture content of your wood and type?
And or how long has your wood been split and covered?

View attachment 291086

Hmm, interesting. I was going to make some "starters" out of wax and sawdust, but never bothered, would burning one of those first be enough to get it warm?

Who makes a decent flu probe?

Moisture content of my wood is under 20%, but generally not by much. It's too cold here, and RH tends to stay between 70-98% all winter, and my understanding is you're simply not going to get it lower because of that without storing it in a conditioned space. It's living in a lean-too on my garden shed, and I split all of it in May/June before it gets really hot out, and I cross stack and tarp the top of it initially then restack it. Mostly pine, fir, and spruce, but some birch and poplar. The poplar has been there for two summers. Next year I hope to process far more birch, but we'll see, it takes a lot longer to dry. I did build another lean-too on the other shed so I can start rotating which stack I use each year. Under the legal agreement I have with the government (read that as the permit I have to gather firewood) I can only cut dead standing or fallen trees, so most of them start at a less than totally green moisture content.

 

[begreen]

Condar makes a good probe thermometer. If you want digital, Auber Instruments is a common buy.

I stack our freshly split wood (mostly doug fir) in March or April at the latest. An extra month or two helps. Our wood settles in around 17% mc by the end of October.

When you start a fire, are you doing it top down? That helps a lot with balky chimneys too.

 

[stoveliker]

Condar.

And see if you can have wood dry for two years.

 

[2drx4]

Some folks put a couple of thick candles in the stove 15 minutes before startup to establish draft. It's more convenient if it works. I think that plus switching out the 90º turn to a pair of 45s in an offset will help quite a bit by eliminating most of the horizontal run.

View attachment 291088

I'm against doing this because I'll be out the materials and $300 for another WETT inspection. I think it makes more sense... Does the horizontal run on my stove need to be as long as it is even? When I put the stove in place I had it a lot closer to the chimney (I bought it from HomeDepot and had a gasfitting/heating contractor do the install), the installer pulled it out more for whatever reason. As I read the clearances it shouldn't have needed to be pulled out. They actually lost my inspection paperwork and sent another guy out, he measured everything entirely differently, so I don't have a lot of confidence in their actual understanding of the clearance requirements.

Maybe I should post the page on clearances from the manual?

 

[stoveliker]

Is the clean out (?) at the bottom of the chimney sealed well? (It has leaked fluid...)

 

[begreen]

I'm wondering if the cleanout is even used anymore. Did they cap the liner tee or did they drop an extension with a cap down to the cleanout door? If the cleanout is no longer used, then the stove can go right up against the block chimney.

 

[2drx4]

Is the clean out (?) at the bottom of the chimney sealed well? (It has leaked fluid...)

Probably. The liner in the chimney also has a plug on the bottom of the elbow, which doesn't seem like it would be able to leak into the lower part there. The leakage there is likely from when the house initially had an oil furnace that was using that chimney, some 35 years before I bought the place. Or maybe it even started with a wood furnace. Like I said, it was built without permits so there's not much info on some things, I just know it had an oil furnace before it had the NG one, as I found the tank with an excavator.

Would it be a good idea to pull the clean out off and put some polyurethane or silicone sealant on it and reinstall?

 

[begreen]

If the tee is capped, then no need to seal the cleanout door.

 

[2drx4]

I'm wondering if the cleanout is even used anymore. Did they cap the liner tee or did they drop an extension with a cap down to the cleanout door? If the cleanout is no longer used, then the stove can go right up against the block chimney.

It's not used. The liner has a T fitting on the bottom of it that has the bottom capped. Do they often extend the liner down to the cleanout? That would seem like a massive PITA to install. I watched the guys struggle to put the liner and T in as it was, and figured I was actually glad I hired it out.

 

[2drx4]

If the tee is capped, then no need to seal the cleanout door.

Roger dodger, I'll leave it alone.

If the stove can move back would that potentially help my issues? I thought it was annoying and stupid they moved it out as far as they did, but I wasn't sure if it had to be done or if they just did it because that was the length of pipe they had on hand.

 

[begreen]

It's not used. The liner has a T fitting on the bottom of it that has the bottom capped. Do they often extend the liner down to the cleanout? That would seem like a massive PITA to install. I watched the guys struggle to put the liner and T in as it was, and figured I was actually glad I hired it out.

It depends on the chimney size and owner preference. My guess is your chimney had an 8x8 clay liner which is a tight fit. In a 10x10 chimney, it's much easier.

 

[begreen]

Roger dodger, I'll leave it alone.

If the stove can move back would that potentially help my issues? I thought it was annoying and stupid they moved it out as far as they did, but I wasn't sure if it had to be done or if they just did it because that was the length of pipe they had on hand.

Shortening up the horizontal will help a bit, but there will still be the two 90º turns which slows down the draft. That said, there's no harm in trying and it if helps, no cost.

 

[2drx4]

It depends on the chimney size and owner preference. My guess is your chimney had an 8x8 clay liner which is a tight fit. In a 10x10 chimney, it's much easier.

Yeah, it's an 8x8 clay liner. I looked at it and figured I had no idea how they would actually get the thing in there and assembled.

Shortening up the horizontal will help a bit, but there will still be the two 90º turns which slows down the draft. That said, there's no harm in trying and it if helps, no cost.

It has to be reinspected if I change anything because the insurance companies... So that's the main cost. Of course I could just do it, since the inspection report they made is pretty much as good as toilet paper.