SS liner insulation questions

[dsmith7000]

Hello all,

I just wanted to start by thanking everyone on this site. I just ordered my first wood burning insert and I got a lot of great information from here. My question is concerning if I should insulate the flexible ss liner that I will be installing soon. I know it is probably the best way to do it, but my budget is blown at this point, and I cant find a kit for less than 300 dollars. I have a single flue brick chimney that is on the outside of the house. It is about 25 feet tall. It has a rectangle ceramic lined flue, probably about 8x12 I would guess. The ceramic liner has been cleaned and inspected and is in perfect shape without any cracks. I will be using top and bottom plates and making sure both are well sealed. I have read on here about cheaper pour in insulations, but have had a hard time finding them online. The climate here is not horrible, but it is definitely not warm. My biggest concern is fire protection. Any ideas would be appreciated.

Thanks

 

[Todd]

Technically you don't need to insulate if it was inspected and in perfect shape. Try it without this year and maybe look into a poured next?

 

[btuser]

25' should give you a decent draft. I had 15', so I insulated. I know (and I'm sure you do too) that an isulated liner is strongly suggested for an exterior chimney reline, but with dry wood, sealed air space, and a carefull eye on any build-up I bet you're fine. If not, then add the pourable insulation.

 

[dsmith7000]

Thanks for the input. Does anyone know of a good place to get the pourable insulation?

Thanks

 

[dsmith7000]

So now I'm really confused. I just called the dealer I ordered the stove from and asked if they could get me a good deal on an insulation kit. The lady called their supplier for the liner (Z-Flex brand) and was told to absolutely never insulate this stainless steel liner. Has anyone ever heard of this? :question:

Thanks

 

[Rudyjr]

Is this the liner that they are selling you? If it is the manufacturer information contradicts what they are telling you. Check out what it says under features and benefits toward the bottom.

http://www.novaflex.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=117&idproduct=400

 

[jtp10181]

So now I'm really confused. I just called the dealer I ordered the stove from and asked if they could get me a good deal on an insulation kit. The lady called their supplier for the liner (Z-Flex brand) and was told to absolutely never insulate this stainless steel liner. Has anyone ever heard of this? :question:

Thanks

That's the most idiotic thing i have ever heard. Maybe your dealer asked them the wrong question. Does you dealer even know how to properly insulate a wood liner? Maybe they asked the vendor if they could wrap it with standard fiberglass insulation and that's where they got the "never do that" response.

Read this, I doubt that whatever type of inspection they did on your chimney can certify that it is 100% to NFPA spec. Unless they cut holes in your walls.
http://www.aer-online.com/aerpage.phtml?page=ar-vent1

 

[joe245]

8x12 is that the O.D or I.D? If you go with the blanket insulation it will add a 1.5'' for the overlap and 1'' or so to the O.D of the liner. So it might be a little tight even if you put the overlap on the wider side.I ran into the same thing and wound up ovalizing it. Went in with little effort. Or like suggested try it with the dead air space and if you want to later do the slurry instead of pulling it to wrap.

 

[dsmith7000]

Ok, So here is where I'm at. Shortly after posting this question I also noticed on their web site that it said all wood burning appliances must have an insulated liner, so I called a branch of Z-flex in Canada to ask about this contradiction. The guy I talked to said that with the Z-Flex SF (Solid Fuel), which is what my dealer is selling me, you should not insulate due to the fact that the liner can reach temps of 1700 degrees, which is about 1300 degrees hotter than I have ever heard of an insert liner getting. I think I'm just going to insulate the thing. Thanks for all the input.

 

[tickbitty]

There's a thread around here from last week about already insulated flexible liner. Posted by magnaflex. Thread got a little contentious but a lot of folks were very attracted by this option. If you don't already have the liner in hand, maybe you can cancel it and get a different product?

 

[BrotherBart]

This is their 316ti liner for wood. Pay special attention to the part that says "Kit must be insulated for wood burning applications.".

http://www.novaflex.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=117&idproduct=400

 

[branchburner]

The cheapest (but not best) way to insulate a liner is with loose perlite. It may not be listed as an option with your liner so may not be to code.
Are you installing the liner yourself, or is your dealer?

 

[mellow]

http://www.hartshearth.com/productcart/pc/viewCategories.asp?idCategory=229

 

[odonnell0917]

I purchased the s/s insulalated liner kit from Mangaflex. I found him on this site. I am installing it this weekend. The guy was great to deal with and it was shipped and received very very quickly. I would recommend using him. I went this direction becuase it was cheaper than purchasing the insulation blanket and liner seperately and looks a hell of a lot easier to install.

 

[Shari]

I purchased the s/s insulalated liner kit from Mangaflex. I found him on this site. I am installing it this weekend. The guy was great to deal with and it was shipped and received very very quickly. I would recommend using him. I went this direction becuase it was cheaper than purchasing the insulation blanket and liner seperately and looks a hell of a lot easier to install.

Could you post pictures of installing the liner and critic how it goes in? It's a new product and we want to hear about it. (New in that it already has insulation attached.)

Shari

 

[odonnell0917]

I will. As long as the chimney cleaner comes tomorrow. I plan on doing it Saturday. After inspecting it last night it looks like it is going to be an easy job. It should slide right down and not get caught up on anything.

 

[Rudyjr]

Excited to learn,I too would like to see some pictures and a review of this product. I think it makes the most sense out of the products that I have seen. I would think it would be much easier to pull into place. Are there clamps holding the outer jacket sections together? It appeared as though there were in the pictures that I saw.

 

[Wet1]

If it's a concern, I suspect the ends could be held together with some safety wire.

 

[53flyer]

Read this, I doubt that whatever type of inspection they did on your chimney can certify that it is 100% to NFPA spec. Unless they cut holes in your walls.
http://www.aer-online.com/aerpage.phtml?page=ar-vent1

My comments/questions are derived from the above link and primarily irt "masonry built" chimneys:

Paragraph 3-

"The results of the stringent testing process a chimney liner must go through in order to carry the full UL 1777 listing is what determines the specific insulating requirements for each specific chimney liner. During a simulated chimney fire, UL measures the amount of heat transferred from within the liner to the exterior of a non-conforming masonry chimney. If UL measures too much heat transfer, then the liner fails the test."

Doesn’t that indicate that if the product "does not fail" the test it will get the 1777 listing and therefore a 1777 listed liner must have passed the above described test that is-in-fact conducted "in a non-conform chimney"?... If a liner that has passed this test (and therefore achieved a 1777 rating) why would it be necessary to do anything else to that liner? In other words, if the liner (without insulation) already passed the test in a non-conforming chimney then what would be the need to insulate that very same liner upon install in a so called non-conforming chimney???

Paragraphs 6&7-

"If the chimney liner you are installing carries a full UL 1777 listing to Zero Clearance you can install, within the liner's installation guidelines, with no airspace between it and the inside of the masonry chimney. This also is the case when the chimney has no air space

A liner which carries the full UL 1777 listing can be installed to Zero Clearance within the chimney without insulation so long as the masonry chimney it's installed into meets NFPA 211. Again, if the masonry chimney does not meet the NFPA 211 standard, insulation is required."

There seems to be a subtle difference between the 2 bolded areas above whereas the former has the added qualifier "to Zero Clearance" that the later does not. Perhaps someone more versed in these particulars codes/listings can tell me if there are 2 levels of 1777 ratings (as suggested by the above difference) or not. Is there one 1777 that is considered ok for direct contact with a masonry chimney and one 1777 that they say requires a liner?

It's also interesting that we're talking about the amount of heat transfer from the liner to the masonry during a chimney fire when "without" a liner at all there would be nothing (no liner) between the raging fire and the masonry so in a way you'd have 100% heat transfer with no liner at all.

 

[Rudyjr]

If it's a concern, I suspect the ends could be held together with some safety wire.

The concern is not that it will come apart, the concern is that it adds to the o.d. of the liner and may get hung up in my case.

 

[jtp10181]

53flyer, I did not read all of that last post but I got the general idea of it.

No single wall flexible stainless steel liner will pass UL 1777 by itself, its impossible. ll products out there like this, you will see in their documentation that the insulation must be used for it to meet UL 1777. Double wall liners with insulation built in can pass it by themselves.