Storage help

[maple1]

Mike,

If you have that howling, thats usually not a good thing. You have others here who know waaaaay more than I do on this (Ill be posting my own "help me!" thread before too long), but the 007 seems like a lot of pump for that short run. There should be very little head loss just to move around that little loop.

Wonder also if extra noise could be a sign of pumps & flows working against each other?

 

[Clarkbug]

Im just thinking that if you have a 007 for each of your loads, and those have all of the piping/fittings inside the house to deal with, having the same pump on maybe 10 feet of pipe is probably running close to its highest rated GPM.

 

[infinitymike]

Wonder also if extra noise could be a sign of pumps & flows working against each other?

I am going to take a stab at it but I think the noise is that there is to much water movement. The system may not need the amount of gpm that the pumps produce therefor causing alot of water to be moving at great speeds. If that is true, I dont know how to resize the pumps.

 

[infinitymike]

[quote="heaterman, post: 1124893, member: 2375"
When it comes to input entering the primary loop from any heat source, you want the "return" first so it pulls water off the loop, takes it to the boiler, and dumps it back onto the btu train after being reheated. Storage would be piped the same way.[/quote]

Ok now I'm confused again.( which is easily achieved) I thought that I would want to change what I have, I have the supply of each heat source upstream of the returns so when the supply enters the loop it has to pass by the return, where it has the opportunity to go right back to the heat source.

What exactly do you mean "you want the return first so it pulls water off the loop......"

That sounds like what I already have. But I may be miss understanding you.

 

[maple1]

I think he means 'first' = 'upstream from', i.e. flow around the loop would hit the heat source return 'first'. But not sure...

 

[jebatty]

What exactly do you mean "you want the return first so it pulls water off the loop......"

infinitymike: heaterman described exactly what my diagram displayed.

 

[infinitymike]

OK. So we all agree I need to move the supplies of my heat source. I like Maple1's drawing of having both supplies of both heat sources on one side in the first position. By the way Maple how did you draw the red/blue lines in my picture? I'd like to be able to do that.

In a counter clockwise loop flow, If I put the 1st zone supply first then the 1st zone return next with a closely spaced tee then the 2nd zone supply next with a closely spaced tee then the 2nd zone return next with a closely spaced tee wouldn't I dump cooler water from the 1st zone back into the loop where it can get pulled right into the supply for the next zone?

I think I should leave the supplies and returns for each heat load the way they are?
So after we figure that out we can move onto the storage questions.
Thank you all so much for all the experienced advice.

 

[maple1]

OK. So we all agree I need to move the supplies of my heat source. I like Maple1's drawing of having both supplies of both heat sources on one side in the first position. By the way Maple how did you draw the red/blue lines in my picture? I'd like to be able to do that.

In a counter clockwise loop flow, If I put the 1st zone supply first then the 1st zone return next with a closely spaced tee then the 2nd zone supply next with a closely spaced tee then the 2nd zone return next with a closely spaced tee wouldn't I dump cooler water from the 1st zone back into the loop where it can get pulled right into the supply for the next zone?

I think I should leave the supplies and returns for each heat load the way they are?
So after we figure that out we can move onto the storage questions.
Thank you all so much for all the experienced advice.

I used to use a program called PhotoSuite that came with a scanner I got a long time ago. But when I tried that this time, it wouldn't save changes to another file for some reason - the program would just close. So I just used MS Paint - pretty sure it's on most every computer made. Not as versatile as I found PhotoSuite to be, but still works for simple stuff.

I'd also leave the zones the way they are, unless your second zone needs water that isn't as hot (like for infloor?) as your first zone. Plus I hate taking things apart if I don't really need to. I will also take the chance to throw in my typical 'I Am No Pro' disclaimer - just living with my system for 17 years & planning for changes by figuring that out and being on here waaay too much.

 

[infinitymike]

So let's move on to storage.

Any suggestions.

 

[Clarkbug]

So let's move on to storage.

Any suggestions.

I would say that if you are going to keep the supplies the way they are, add another set of closely spaced tees (or a Taco Twin-Tee) into the loop for storage.

 

[woodsmaster]

My suggestion would be to fix what you have while adding the storage.

 

[woodsmaster]

So your saying you want to dig a pit aprox 4' deep 4' wide and 17' long to put the tank in ?

 

[ewdudley]

So let's move on to storage.

Any suggestions.

For pressurized storage:

Boiler supply goes to top of storage, boiler return pulls from bottom of storage. Some method of controlling minimum boiler return temperature is necessary.

Load pulls from top of storage, load returns to bottom of storage.

Depending on your design goals you may need to take steps to control boiler supply temperature to storage and/or system return temperature to storage, but this doesn't change the basic plumbing.

 

[infinitymike]

For pressurized storage:

Boiler supply goes to top of storage, boiler return pulls from bottom of storage. Some method of controlling minimum boiler return temperature is necessary.

Load pulls from top of storage, load returns to bottom of storage.

Depending on your design goals you may need to take steps to control boiler supply temperature to storage and/or system return temperature to storage, but this doesn't change the basic plumbing.

Lets see if my thinking is correct. You guys have taught me alot. Hopefully I retained it.

I have a circ pump taking hot water out of the wood gun and pushing it to the primary loop.
I will re plumb it so that pump feeds the tank on the top side.

Then I will need another pump that will push the hot water, that is coming of the top of the tank, to the primary loop.

The zones will be fed from the primary loop. ( that will be re-plumbed as per the previous postings)

The return of the primary loop will enter in the bottom of the tank and another pipe at the bottom of the tank will go to the wood gun.

 

[infinitymike]

I would say that if you are going to keep the supplies the way they are, add another set of closely spaced tees (or a Taco Twin-Tee) into the loop for storage.

I will re-plumb the loop as per the previous postings.

 

[infinitymike]

So your saying you want to dig a pit aprox 4' deep 4' wide and 17' long to put the tank in ?

Thats right. Well maybe with the help of my friend "Bobby Dig Dug". This guy is a retired NYFD who broke up his entire basement slab and took it out in spackle buckets up a set of bilco door steps. Then underpined his footings (mixing the concrete by hand) then dug out the sand by a 18" (taking that out in buckets)!! and poured a slab, again mixing it by hand.

He also dug out by hand a 16'x30' oval pool and sunk it in the ground by 3'.

So a 4'x4'x17' pit would be a walk in the park for him.