Student loan forgiveness

[Ashful]

Sorry to start a rant, but after putting myself through school while working full-time, it's hard to sit on this one.

My past: Worked full-time for 14 years, while doing a combination of full-time, part-time, and evening college. Started in 1993, received BS in 2004, and MS in 2007. Worked full-time to pay for my schooling for all of that period, excepting two 9-month windows when school had to take priority. Never took a single dime in student loans, and my parents did not pay for my schooling.

So now, I'm being asked to pay thru my taxes, for those who took an easier path, and now feel they shouldn't have to pay back what they borrowed? That's awful hard to stomach. What about the poor folks who have already scraped to pay back what they owed, and now have to (on top of what they've already paid) pay for someone else's borrowing, through their taxes? Unacceptable.

 

[Poindexter]

I find it difficult to disagree.

I worked night shift my last three semesters of my bachelor's, because I had mandatory classes that fell in day shift and evening shift every time.

 

[Garbanzo62]

People who knowingly took on debt should be required to repay it. That being said, I do not see why the gov't can't lower the interest rates on Student loans.. That 10K is about a years worth of interest for my kids loans. I suspect that there will be a challenge to the authority to do this. They are leveraging a law passed after 9/11 to allow the govt to forgive student loans for soldiers. Administration argued that Title 42 was no longer needed because the Covid Emergency was over. Now they are saying the Covid Emergency give them the authority to forgive the debt.. Can't have it both ways

 

[bholler]

It's no secret I am fairly liberal. But I have to agree on this one. Existing loans absolutely shouldn't be forgiven. And I don't really think new ones should be either. Now I will say the cost has risen to rediculous levels and it would be good if something could be done to make it more attainable. But I don't agree with total handouts.

 

[Ashful]

It's no secret I am fairly liberal. But I have to agree on this one. Existing loans absolutely shouldn't be forgiven. And I don't really think new ones should be either. Now I will say the cost has risen to rediculous levels and it would be good if something could be done to make it more attainable. But I don't agree with total handouts.

Agreed on all points, both bholler and Garbanzo.

Re: costs... After spending 14 years in academia, even debating making that my career, I had the privilege of watching many a high-school sophomore walk the campus on the three universities I attended, as they shopped for their future school of choice. Overwhelmingly, they would respond to the amenities, more than the education. Which school had the nicest gym, dorms, cafeteria, and coffee bars. So, schools had to respond in kind, building out these expensive facilities, and then passing that cost to the students. This is a large part of the reason that college prices have risen so much more quickly than other cost of living indexes, it's certainly not what they're paying their faculty, in most cases.

Whatever the reasons, the good news is that I do believe there is a reckoning coming, with regard to college costs. Those attending school in the last 5 years may have seen the peak, in terms of adjusted cost. So many have come to the realization that there are better alternatives than 4-5 years at a university, at a cost of $150 - $300k, and even employers have come to accept that a BS isn't necessarily the best measure of an employee's suitability for their role. It creates new challenges, for employers to find new ways to evaluate young employees without the obligatory piece of paper from an accredited university, but I'm confident smart social media tech will appear to fill that need and that online and self-paced options will continue to improve and grow acceptance and respect. All of this gives better options to those who cannot afford (in either time or dollars) the traditional path, as well as putting pressure on universities to reduce costs.

 

[Garbanzo62]

Agreed on all points, both bholler and Garbanzo.

Re: costs... After spending 14 years in academia, even debating making that my career, I had the privilege of watching many a high-school sophomore walk the campus on the three universities I attended, as they shopped for their future school of choice. Overwhelmingly, they would respond to the amenities, more than the education. Which school had the nicest gym, dorms, cafeteria, and coffee bars. So, schools had to respond in kind, building out these expensive facilities, and then passing that cost to the students. This is a large part of the reason that college prices have risen so much more quickly than other cost of living indexes, it's certainly not what they're paying their faculty, in most cases.

Whatever the reasons, the good news is that I do believe there is a reckoning coming, with regard to college costs. Those attending school in the last 5 years may have seen the peak, in terms of adjusted cost. So many have come to the realization that there are better alternatives than 4-5 years at a university, at a cost of $150 - $300k, and even employers have come to accept that a BS isn't necessarily the best measure of an employee's suitability for their role. It creates new challenges, for employers to find new ways to evaluate young employees without the obligatory piece of paper from an accredited university, but I'm confident smart social media tech will appear to fill that need and that online and self-paced options will continue to improve and grow acceptance and respect. All of this gives better options to those who cannot afford (in either time or dollars) the traditional path, as well as putting pressure on universities to reduce costs.

I went to one of the top business schools in the county (ok forty years ago) What I got out if it is more of an education on how to critically think and how to live on my own. From a profession standpoint. I learned more in the first six months on the job than I did in the four years at school. I must say that the school name did open doors that might otherwise been closed.

 

[brenndatomu]

Unacceptable.

Totally agree.
I just cashflowed (2) 2 year degrees for my wife (only paid for the education, not the school name...she still got a good job in about 2 weeks) but guess I shoulda took a loan out

 

[EbS-P]

It’s not fair. Wasn’t designed to be. And I’m not sure there would be a fair way. I don’t think the current tax code is fair either (cough cough capital gains tax rate). NFL is non profit organization…

Taxes are for the greater good not personal benefits.

I’d doesn’t address the root issue, the of cost of higher education. Many States are spending less per student while costs are increasing. College is not what it was 20 years ago. We now have case managers on staff in the student life side (one example). The demands for accountability from state governments has increased the bureaucracy and middle level management cost by huge amounts.

For them most part I do think public institutions are doing all they can to keep costs in check but they all will need to increase salary spending by a lot to keep competitive in the new labor market.

10k forgiveness is enough to matter for some who receive it. Others it no where near their total students debt load.

What were not saying is housing costs are a huge factor. Probably just as much or more than tuition at some/many public schools. They would have had to pay for that some way. Parents or from their own pocket.

What are your thought on PPP grants? Many companies had no need for them.

 

[bholler]

It’s not fair. Wasn’t designed to be. And I’m not sure there would be a fair way. I don’t think the current tax code is fair either (cough cough capital gains tax rate). NFL is non profit organization…

Taxes are for the greater good not personal benefits.

I’d doesn’t address the root issue, the of cost of higher education. Many States are spending less per student while costs are increasing. College is not what it was 20 years ago. We now have case managers on staff in the student life side (one example). The demands for accountability from state governments has increased the bureaucracy and middle level management cost by huge amounts.

For them most part I do think public institutions are doing all they can to keep costs in check but they all will need to increase salary spending by a lot to keep competitive in the new labor market.

10k forgiveness is enough to matter for some who receive it. Others it no where near their total students debt load.

What were not saying is housing costs are a huge factor. Probably just as much or more than tuition at some/many public schools. They would have had to pay for that some way. Parents or from their own pocket.

What are your thought on PPP grants? Many companies had no need for them.

PPP grants were a great thing that like most things like that are taken advantage of by way too many people who didn't need them. Now many of those people got a rude awakening when it came time to show proof of your added expenses in order to have the loan forgiven.

 

[stoveliker]

I do have to say that the cost of college these days is far, FAR larger, than your '90s pricing.

A cheap state college here in NY (e.g. Stony Brook) costs 25k$-ish per year. I have two kids. That's 200k$.

The solution to this issue is not loan forgiveness, becaus that's attacking a symptom. It should be solved on the front end, by keeping costs down. Yes, that's tax money too. But I think that education is worth it, that the country will be better off.

Only after that is solved, I'd be in favor of spending money on those we recognize that we wronged (by having this wrong system now).

My $0.02.

 

[Ashful]

I do have to say that the cost of college these days is far, FAR larger, than your '90s pricing.

Oh, definitely. Didn't mean to imply it was. I watched the cost of each of the three schools I attended nearly double in ten years, whereas the median household income only went up 17% during the same period. I would guess that the ratio of median tuition to median household income grew more in the late 1990's and early 2000's, than any other period in our country's history. The amenities also vastly improved, in the early 1990's I was still using the same concrete cell block dorm room my father had used in the 1960's, sharing it with another guy, and sharing the one bathroom and one pay phone per floor with 100 other guys. Ten years later, each two rooms had become a room + private bathroom suite, they'd built a new gymnasium, new cafeteria, and every room had internet and cable TV.

A cheap state college here in NY (e.g. Stony Brook) costs 25k$-ish per year. I have two kids. That's 200k$.

That's not bad, by today's standards. The university from which I have my MSEE (and 75% of my Ph.D credits) is presently charging $71.5k per year per undergraduate student. But there are much more affordable, and frankly... better, options out there.

 

[stoveliker]

I agree.
Stony Brook is a cheap one, as I said.

I also think the universities should get out of the room rental (dorm) business. It has no bearing on the quality of education. Private market works fine elsewhere. ..

 

[bholler]

I agree.
Stony Brook is a cheap one, as I said.

I also think the universities should get out of the room rental (dorm) business. It has no bearing on the quality of education. Private market works fine elsewhere. ..

I don't know dorms are a big part of college. I don't know what it is now but I thought my room and board was pretty reasonable honestly

 

[stoveliker]

Not having a dorm does not make one uninvolved; most college cities in Europe have far more active student social live, and no dorms whatsoever.

 

[bholler]

Not having a dorm does not make one uninvolved; most college cities in Europe have far more active student social live, and no dorms whatsoever.

Oh I know you don't need a dorm to be connected. But personally I feel I would have missed out if I lived off campus the whole time

 

[stoveliker]

The campus is only the university buildings (departments). I.e. offices. Instead folks lived in rooms downtown.

 

[EbS-P]

Here is data from the NC system for graduate debt. I would like to see bump from those who didn’t graduate and from community colleges.

Average debt load seems reasonable

https://ticas.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/Student-Debt-for-College-Graduates-in-North-Carolina.pdf

 

[Poindexter]

Here is data from the NC system for graduate debt.

I find the data for UNC-CH hard to believe. I went in as a junior transfer, and worked full time to pay all my housing, food, transportation and books. I only borrowed to cover tuition and fees. The help my parents could afford was to call and offer words of affirmation through the telephone lines while long distance rates were lower on the weekends.

The table implies an entering freshman could do a 4 year degree for $24, 228 in tuition and fees. I think that number is much more likely to represent average cost per year. I borrowed close to 20k there in 4 semesters, and there was a great deal of outrage within the student body for how much higher tuition and fees were going to be the semester after I graduated.

According to "scholarships dot com" 2022 instate tuition for fulltime students at UNC-CH is $8980 per semester, before fees, books and housing. That is $72k just for 8 semesters tuition.

 

[Ashful]

According to "scholarships dot com" 2022 instate tuition for fulltime students at UNC-CH is $8980 per semester, before fees, books and housing. That is $72k just for 8 semesters tuition.

State schools are a great option, typically very high standards at a fraction of the price of an equivalent private education. Any parent should be thrilled, if their kids can get acceptance into the main campus of any of the better state schools. Penn State has one of the better graduate programs in the country, for my particular field.

 

[Prof]

State schools are a great option, typically very high standards at a fraction of the price of an equivalent private education. Any parent should be thrilled, if their kids can get acceptance into the main campus of any of the better state schools. Penn State has one of the better graduate programs in the country, for my particular field.

A common misperception is that Penn State is a state school--far from it. It is mostly private these days. Tuition is crazy expensive compared to what it was when I spent my 8 years there (I did a BS and a PhD there, I wasn't a slacker). There are 14 state schools in PA--PSU, Pitt and Temple are state-affiliated. Great schools, but bring your checkbook!

 

[JRHAWK9]

Back in the early 90's, I paid $9xx per semester at University of Wisconsin - Green Bay and $1,3XX per semester at University of Wisconsin- Milwaukee where I graduated with a BS. I was completely floored when talking to a co-worker with kids with what they pay now. I couldn't believe it. It's criminal.

 

[Prof]

I work in higher ed. Here is the truth as I see it (at least in PA). State contributions to the state schools have dropped off a cliff over the past two decades. State schools raised tuition and fees to compensate. To my knowledge the administration didn't really look too hard to find real solutions, which probably would have looked like down-sizing. They continued to build despite enrollment projections predicting a famine of sorts. Years later, we have priced ourselves out of any reasonable market for higher ed., even at the public level. On balance. it is a combination of state government not caring about higher education and mismanagement at the institutions. I still won't hesitate to send my kids to state or state-affiliated schools, they will get a good education. Then again, I was fortunate to be able to start a 529 plan the day they were born (plus they will get free tuition at the place I work, provided it doesn't completely collapse). My student loans have been paid off for more than a decade, but I don't have a problem with the recent forgiveness plan. BTW, we paid for my loans as well as my wife's (about 50K) and then we paid for my wife's MA (another 25K). I have felt the pain! I look at this recent action as a better investment in the future than tax breaks for corporations. Just my thoughts, for what they are worth.

 

[brenndatomu]

I look at this recent action as a better investment in the future than tax breaks for corporations.

Well, going at it from that angle, it is also a whole lot better investment than the 85 billion worth of equipment left behind over in the sandbox too!

 

[EbS-P]

Back in the early 90's, I paid $9xx per semester at University of Wisconsin - Green Bay and $1,3XX per semester at University of Wisconsin- Milwaukee where I graduated with a BS. I was completely floored when talking to a co-worker with kids with what they pay now. I couldn't believe it. It's criminal.

We were informed at the last faculty meeting that the departments are now paying 400$ a year for every phone/phone line associated with the department. Faculty were floored. I don’t see many keeping their phones. We just switched to VOIP phones last year and I think. One example of costs that have nothing to do with education. In general the IT expenses I’m sure have gone through the roof.

 

[stoveliker]

And then to know that national lab overhead rates are far, far worse than university ones...