The same can be said for every line item on the budget regardless of which side supports that spending. Again I don't support this idea but there are also many things our country has and still is spending billions on that I think are even more of a waste.
Student loan forgiveness
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re: vo-tech. Amen to both of you, this was the case even in 1990, when I was considering this option. I had a lot of friends who went that direction, and more of them were there due to either disciplinary issues or an idea they couldn't cut the regular curriculum, than because they had any real passion for their program.
This is completely backwards thinking, the opportunity to go to vo-tech should be a privilege for those few who know what they want to do at that young age, not a dumping ground for poor students to goof off.
As a side note, my grandfather was flunked out of vo-tech for blacksmithing around 1930, he says because he was too wussy to grab iron out of the forge (by the "cooler" end) with his bare hands. I guess things were different, back then. He was a kind, but tough-as-nails 70-year old life-long plumber, in my recollection of him.
This is completely backwards thinking, the opportunity to go to vo-tech should be a privilege for those few who know what they want to do at that young age, not a dumping ground for poor students to goof off.
As a side note, my grandfather was flunked out of vo-tech for blacksmithing around 1930, he says because he was too wussy to grab iron out of the forge (by the "cooler" end) with his bare hands. I guess things were different, back then. He was a kind, but tough-as-nails 70-year old life-long plumber, in my recollection of him.
I also disagree with forgiving student loans for the many reasons already stated here.
My wife and I are already currently funding scholarships at both schools we attended. We have also signed agreements to leave them both money to continue funding the scholarships after we have passed.
I went to Yale for graduate school ...
Yale undergraduates protesting and occupying the financial aid office because they are required to work a few hours a week for their scholarship. Working deprives them of the opportunity to fully “engage in the social activities that Yale promises as part of the university experience” tuition-paying students experience.
www.nhregister.com
Yale graduate student protesting that her graduate student stipend (her PAY to get an education) was being cut in her seventh (!) year of graduate school. A Yale dean responded that Yale graduate students receive unsurpassed support, totaling $437,000 through six years. Maybe it’s time to graduate and get a job?
www.nhregister.com
www.nhregister.com
My wife and I are already currently funding scholarships at both schools we attended. We have also signed agreements to leave them both money to continue funding the scholarships after we have passed.
I went to Yale for graduate school ...
Yale undergraduates protesting and occupying the financial aid office because they are required to work a few hours a week for their scholarship. Working deprives them of the opportunity to fully “engage in the social activities that Yale promises as part of the university experience” tuition-paying students experience.
Yale students arrested during sit-in protest over financial aid
NEW HAVEN — Approximately 20 Yale University students were arrested after they refused...
Yale graduate student protesting that her graduate student stipend (her PAY to get an education) was being cut in her seventh (!) year of graduate school. A Yale dean responded that Yale graduate students receive unsurpassed support, totaling $437,000 through six years. Maybe it’s time to graduate and get a job?
Forum: Yale’s decision to cut graduate teacher pay shameful
[...] the system is now such that the most experienced graduate teachers in the History...
Forum: Graduate students at Yale receive unsurpassed support
Another fact that surprises many: the Yale Graduate School pays for comprehensive health...
SpaceBus
Minister of Fire
stoveliker
Minister of Fire
I do agree that there are many folks in (a 4 yr) college that have no business being there (and thus rack up debt for no reason).
I think a fairly significant fraction of debt could be avoided by having a working array of options that lead students to useful skills, i.e. 4 yr colleges, a useful Bachelor's degree (I note that in the medical field more and more jobs (nursing) require a Masters degree), vocational schools with specific and economically valuable skills (heat pump, battery, transportation), and NOT all wanting 4 years because that makes it "look good" (i.e. if you know enough in 2 years, be done with it, and give the diploma). The emphasis here is on getting as many people into a 4 yr college, and in making them appealing, decking those colleges out with incredible facilities (that do mostly not serve the educational purpose), is driving up costs. A down-to-earth approach where schools teach skills and don't engage in other activities (and their shiny facilities) is a better thing imo.
Students (young adults) have never been unable to find their entertainment. Things will pop up without schools being the main financial channel through which extracurricular activities are being offered. Schools should focus on the curriculum.
That's the $0.02 of a person who went to school until he was 29, in another country, but who had a (joint) prof. position at a state 4 yr college in the US.
I think a fairly significant fraction of debt could be avoided by having a working array of options that lead students to useful skills, i.e. 4 yr colleges, a useful Bachelor's degree (I note that in the medical field more and more jobs (nursing) require a Masters degree), vocational schools with specific and economically valuable skills (heat pump, battery, transportation), and NOT all wanting 4 years because that makes it "look good" (i.e. if you know enough in 2 years, be done with it, and give the diploma). The emphasis here is on getting as many people into a 4 yr college, and in making them appealing, decking those colleges out with incredible facilities (that do mostly not serve the educational purpose), is driving up costs. A down-to-earth approach where schools teach skills and don't engage in other activities (and their shiny facilities) is a better thing imo.
Students (young adults) have never been unable to find their entertainment. Things will pop up without schools being the main financial channel through which extracurricular activities are being offered. Schools should focus on the curriculum.
That's the $0.02 of a person who went to school until he was 29, in another country, but who had a (joint) prof. position at a state 4 yr college in the US.
Not at all. Things are inarguably better. This is simply about honoring your obligations, and following through, to do what you already promised.
Your thinking on this matter is a great example of the problem itself, not a solution.
lol... well said!
That's not necessarily a good thing. I've seen and cleaned up the aftermath of students finding their own fun.
brenndatomu
Minister of Fire
There is value in having went through the struggle to make your own way too.
stoveliker
Minister of Fire
But that struggle these days is far worse than back then. Far more money involved. You can't compare.
The whole idea is ridiculous for multiple reasons.
-$10,000 won't even touch most peoples debt.
-As already covered, this is something the borrower agreed to.
-There are plenty of options to have manageable tuition. I believe the university I attended was approximately $10,000 a year. I chose a local college and commuted.
-A lot of students are wasting money and time obtaining degrees that are nearly worthless.
Really it's a cultural thing that is flawed. Everyone goes to college because it is the thing to do. A lot of students I graduated high school with went places solely based on sports or friends. It was uncommon for them to even know what they want to go for (why go if you don't know what you want to major in?) Many of them switched to easier majors that did think they knew what they wanted to go for.
I graduated roughly 3 years ago from college. I was very interested in pursuing a trade, but researched and determined the cost of college was worth it for me. I may not have broken even yet based on cost of tuition (not much with scholarships) and cost of lost time at work, but I am nearing that.
-$10,000 won't even touch most peoples debt.
-As already covered, this is something the borrower agreed to.
-There are plenty of options to have manageable tuition. I believe the university I attended was approximately $10,000 a year. I chose a local college and commuted.
-A lot of students are wasting money and time obtaining degrees that are nearly worthless.
Really it's a cultural thing that is flawed. Everyone goes to college because it is the thing to do. A lot of students I graduated high school with went places solely based on sports or friends. It was uncommon for them to even know what they want to go for (why go if you don't know what you want to major in?) Many of them switched to easier majors that did think they knew what they wanted to go for.
I graduated roughly 3 years ago from college. I was very interested in pursuing a trade, but researched and determined the cost of college was worth it for me. I may not have broken even yet based on cost of tuition (not much with scholarships) and cost of lost time at work, but I am nearing that.
That depends what you are going to school for. For some majors absolutely state schools are a good option. Others it simply isnt
While true, that is a factor that can be calculated prior to the commitment.
Yes of course. But even many state schools are over $20000 a year now for residents. Again the costs are just out of hand
Which is quite ridiculous, that I will not disagree with you on. I can say that if I absolutely had to pay that, even without scholarships, it may have still been worth it for my degree. I would have had to really think about that though.
Oh I don't really think that is a crazy price at all for a decent private school. But it's crazy for a state school.
What is the point that that would be worth it, salary wise? It would at least have to start near six figures upon graduation.
Because my niece just started. PSU for in state is just under $16k/year. Not including books, parking, or housing/food costs. Add another $7k a year at least for living on campus.
20 years ago that would have been 2 years worth.
20 years ago that would have been 2 years worth.
society/government does have responsibilities in this crisis. Easy money, little oversight, no guidance, lots of parallels to the mortgage crisis in 2008.
And those who preach financial responsibility, who “suffered” and made their children “suffer” by having to work thru school, or the military, are tired of paying for the lack of planning and discipline of others.
Doesn’t mean we are without compassion, but its for those who are true victims.
If mommy and daddy never made Bobby uncomfortable, and celebrated every time he received a participant trophy its on them for letting the village raise their child. They probably also didn’t set examples of fiscal discipline.
Nothing new here, same ancient issues in a new wrap.
And those who preach financial responsibility, who “suffered” and made their children “suffer” by having to work thru school, or the military, are tired of paying for the lack of planning and discipline of others.
Doesn’t mean we are without compassion, but its for those who are true victims.
If mommy and daddy never made Bobby uncomfortable, and celebrated every time he received a participant trophy its on them for letting the village raise their child. They probably also didn’t set examples of fiscal discipline.
Nothing new here, same ancient issues in a new wrap.
stoveliker
Minister of Fire
I lived like an undergrad student for the first 3 years after I started pulling a salary.
That allowed me to create an emergency fund that 95 percent of people here don't have. My own personal insurance, first thing right off the bat. (Because college was cheap for me, see below.)
Do that, and it is feasible to pay off a debt that is about a yearly salary before committing to "adult life" (home, kids, decent car etc )
So, going to college and getting a 60k$ starting salary when done, I'd be ok with a 60k$ in debt for the full cost of college (i.e. including the dorm and food etc.)
That'd be my "acceptable" range.
That also means that if you study for an English major and get to be teacher (but not in NYS...), you should not be forced to rack up 60k$ in debt. I.e. degrees not worth much *economically* should not cost that much.
And it also means that frugality as a student makes you get a decent car ,or better a home, sooner.
Bottom line, one yearly starting salary.
Noting that's still likely 30 percent of a mortgage. So it's not nothing.
Just live.like a student for a few more years. That's overseeable, and doable. Knock it out quickly and get on with life.
In the old country where I come from they are arguing about increasing tuition by 100 vs 200 euros (due to inflation). No dorm, meal plans involved. 2350 euro per year or so. The rest is taxpayer funded (i.e. the well-off people like me would pay more, which is fine imo.)
That allowed me to create an emergency fund that 95 percent of people here don't have. My own personal insurance, first thing right off the bat. (Because college was cheap for me, see below.)
Do that, and it is feasible to pay off a debt that is about a yearly salary before committing to "adult life" (home, kids, decent car etc )
So, going to college and getting a 60k$ starting salary when done, I'd be ok with a 60k$ in debt for the full cost of college (i.e. including the dorm and food etc.)
That'd be my "acceptable" range.
That also means that if you study for an English major and get to be teacher (but not in NYS...), you should not be forced to rack up 60k$ in debt. I.e. degrees not worth much *economically* should not cost that much.
And it also means that frugality as a student makes you get a decent car ,or better a home, sooner.
Bottom line, one yearly starting salary.
Noting that's still likely 30 percent of a mortgage. So it's not nothing.
Just live.like a student for a few more years. That's overseeable, and doable. Knock it out quickly and get on with life.
In the old country where I come from they are arguing about increasing tuition by 100 vs 200 euros (due to inflation). No dorm, meal plans involved. 2350 euro per year or so. The rest is taxpayer funded (i.e. the well-off people like me would pay more, which is fine imo.)
SpaceBus
Minister of Fire
$10,000 should cover most trade schools and maybe even a decent chunk of tools. Isn't that what you all suggest people do, work in trades?
I keep hearing you write that but I am currently funding my daughter's senior year a the best state school in WA, the University of Washington, and undergrad tuition is just $12,000 per year. She, like I, gained a 2 year degree from a community college before transferring to university. When I paid for my university degree decades ago it was cheaper but not by much. Is it that these people with huge debt loads are graduate students, out of state, or racked up huge housing bills?
Either way, you racked up the bills so you owe the money. I would be all for reducing university costs as a solution that would apply to all students going forward.
stoveliker
Minister of Fire
That is tuition. Not the cost (dorm,meal plans, fees, etc.) All for things that do not constitute education.
SpaceBus
Minister of Fire
Why not make all public universities free? They are already getting subsidized government money, plus the federal government insured loans.
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