Student loan forgiveness

[Ashful]

Community colleges have been consolidating over the last 15 years since states reduced funding during the last recession. I am fortunate to live near several, but many across the nation are not so lucky. Pennsylvania for example, previously had more scattered across the state, but they slowly became PSU satellite campuses and tuition quadrupled.

This is unfortunate. I both hire and mentor occasional young engineers and engineering students, and I've been really impressed over the last ten years, how it has actually become more common for them to complete their first two years at a community college, before moving on to finish at a 4-year university, than it was when I was that age. It's a really smart plan, for avoiding unnecessary debt, while completing obligatory math and literature credits.

I can tell you this was much less common among those I knew 30 years ago. Back then, with a few notable exceptions, it seemed community college was mostly a road to nowhere, a holding pen for those who failed to make any other plans. Only one or two of my two dozen classmates that went to the local community college ended up going on to finish the originally-planned 4-year degree.

 

[Shank]

So much this. I work at one of the top ranked R1 polytechnic universities in the country.

The number of engineering firms expecting new structural, Mechanical and architectural engineers to work for $40k per year (in the NYC Metro) for the first 5 years at 60+hrs a week is pathetic.

They have to put off paying their loans so the interest explodes over those years as they "play by the rules" and their debt nearly doubles.

I come from the land of dirt roads and intersections without stop signs. People leave those places due to a lack of opportunity. The prior generations made degrees prerequisites for positions that only require on the job training. Then they laugh at people struggling to accomplish it. It saddens me.

-Fundraising professional for a stem university

This is quite surprising, coming from an area with a way lower cost of living, the engineers in my class all started a fair amount higher than that.

 

[JerseyRobb]

Oh, I didn't ignore it. I actually thought that was good information, an overall good post, and I'm sorry for not saying it.

I was only responding to the portion that was in error, namely beginning with, "opinion of a millennial who will never enjoy social security and medicare," followed by two more mentions of it. I am sorry that I missed a subsequent qualifier of "(as we known it)", you had not applied that to your initial statement on the subject.

The plan is not as simple as a pyramid scheme, but yes, it has problems. We all know it has problems, and frankly always has. But at the same time, please don't try to sell us on being, "a millennial who will never enjoy social security and medicare." These were your exact words, and this is simply untrue.

The social security trust fund balance has been leveling off since around 2008. You are right, I should have added the qualifier each time I said it. Direct link to SSA website showing both the OASDI and DI trust funds with low to high risk factor projections. It also shows what is needed to postpone likely insolvency and we should be doing it now, but we are not. Which is why I didn't really spend too much time qualifying my comment. Without policy changes the combined funds are headed to insolvency by the time I would be eligible to collect.

 

[SpaceBus]

This is quite surprising, coming from an area with a way lower cost of living, the engineers in my class all started a fair amount higher than that.

You know where all of the engineers from your graduating class went and what they did? I know many undergrad engineering students who were thrilled for $50k/yr starting, which is a joke if you had to move to another state for that career path/education. When you look up wages, they are MEAN wages, not median. There could be just a few outliers pushing that average up well over what it should be, thus falsely inflating the presumed starting wages for an undergraduate. Even if the MEDIAN yearly wages for a 4yr engineering student were $66k, 50% of new students would be making LESS.
There's a lot of college grads on this thread, remember your statistics.

 

[Ashful]

If a whole generation of children entered the workforce unready, who's fault is that?

A whole generation of children have not entered the workforce unready. I have hired and worked with many young competent, and frankly brilliant, engineers. Any fraction of those entering the workforce unready may not be much different today, than in the past.

Unbelievable that millennials and younger generations somehow are not a product of the sins of our fathers, like every other generation before and instead it is all our fault. Do you men really think that multiple generations really just love debt and want a lifetime of struggle?

Not at all. It is as much a fault of the parents. But in the end, students signed loan agreements as adults, and are therefore obligated to repay them.

When will you come to terms with the system is broken, not your children?

I think those taking issue with the loan forgiveness are doing so because they and their children are not the ones who are broken, to use your terms.

 

[festerw]

Community colleges have been consolidating over the last 15 years since states reduced funding during the last recession. I am fortunate to live near several, but many across the nation are not so lucky. Pennsylvania for example, previously had more scattered across the state, but they slowly became PSU satellite campuses and tuition quadrupled.

This is one of those good and bad. As a community college they may have been just scraping by so a PSU name helps them and keeps the doors open. The bad is larger campuses lose funding to smaller ones to subsidize the infrastructure for 400 students, while UP holds the purse strings and decides who pays what while taking a cut off the top.

After being an employee for 15 years and watching all the nickel and dime crap to 'save' money and then seeing them throw away millions on deferring building maintenance is sickening.

There's a lot of blame to go around everywhere in whole student loan system.

 

[JerseyRobb]

This is unfortunate. I both hire and mentor occasional young engineers and engineering students, and I've been really impressed over the last ten years, how it has actually become more common for them to complete their first two years at a community college, before moving on to finish at a 4-year university, than it was when I was that age. It's a really smart plan, for avoiding unnecessary debt, while completing obligatory math and literature credits.

I can tell you this was much less common among those I knew 30 years ago. Back then, with a few notable exceptions, it seemed community college was mostly a road to nowhere, a holding pen for those who failed to make any other plans. Only one or two of my two dozen classmates that went to the local community college ended up going on to finish the originally-planned 4-year degree.

Thank you for mentoring young engineers. I cannot express how much I applaud you for that. I spent a substantial amount of time meeting with accomplished PEs to convince them that their time is more valuable than their cash donations (although we obviously like those too, ha). And I will say that the older graduates from the institution do typically love interacting with the current students and recent graduates. One way universities are ranked is by calculating the percentage of alumni who annually donate either money or time. The typical public institution is typically 4-5%, we enjoy a rate exceeding 10%.

The problem has been getting those presently 55-70 to volunteer their time. It can be easier for me to find an 80yo who lives alone in a studio apartment (I find accomplished engineers are typically one end or the other of the frugality scale) who is excited to mentor someone. But this is often better to work as a pipeline to introduce them to active engineers. Again, thank you for what you do. It is vitally important.

And to be clear, I am in no-way an engineer. My degrees are in economics, i/o psych and an mpa. Somehow I landed in foundation work at a stem university. It is the most rewarding work I have ever done.

 

[SpaceBus]

A whole generation of children have not entered the workforce unready. I have hired and worked with many young competent, and frankly brilliant, engineers. Any fraction of those entering the workforce unready may not be much different today, than in the past.


Not at all. It is as much a fault of the parents. But in the end, students signed loan agreements as adults, and are therefore obligated to repay them.


I think those taking issue with the loan forgiveness are doing so because they and their children are not the ones who are broken, to use your terms.

This thread has been entirely about bashing younger generations and their "choices" in education, then you go on to cherry pick a handful of individuals. Statistics is not your strong suit.

So now we blame those being exploited, not the exploiters. How capitalist of you.

I DO NOT think the offspring are the problem, I'm blaming the elder generations that lead an entire generation into having $40k on average in student loan debt. AKA the system is broken.

You act like children are just magically capable of making adult decisions just because they finished public school and are eighteen years old. The drinking age is specifically 21 because the majority of adults in this country do not find 18 year-olds to be very responsible. Young people are simultaneously expected to make bad choices, but also good choices that make them wealthy. We all know that young adults are not known for making the best choices, as a whole. So why do we expect to just throw them out of the house at 18 and they will just be able to make it in this cutthroat world we live in?

Ravens do a better job of preparing their youth for success than humans these days.

 

[Ashful]

You know where all of the engineers from your graduating class went and what they did? I know many undergrad engineering students who were thrilled for $50k/yr starting, which is a joke if you had to move to another state for that career path/education.

Things were horrendous in 2003/04, and again in 2008/09. I saw this reflected in more students just NOT getting jobs in their major, than in the salaries offered to the few who did.

Also, do note there is a huge (by roughly 6:1 ratio in my own limited experience) range of starting salaries, for different engineering disciplines. Those named here (architectural, then mechanical) are near the bottom of the heap on salary, nuclear and then RF/Microwave/photonics are toward the top. I do know three engineering undergrads (all nuclear) from a family member's graduating class, who were all offered starting salaries over $300k ca. 2000.

 

[SpaceBus]

Things were horrendous in 2003/04, and again in 2008/09. I saw this reflected in more students just NOT getting jobs in their major, than in the salaries offered to the few who did.

Also, do note there is a huge (by roughly 6:1 ratio in my own limited experience) range of starting salaries, for different engineering disciplines. Those named here (architectural, then mechanical) are near the bottom of the heap on salary, nuclear and then RF/Microwave/photonics are toward the top. I do know three engineering undergrads (all nuclear) from a family member's graduating class, who were all offered starting salaries over $300k ca. 2000.

Wow, three nuclear engineers in a country with no new nuclear plants being built, who are also from a well off family. You couldn't be more statistically irrelevant.

 

[JerseyRobb]

This thread has been entirely about bashing younger generations and their "choices" in education, then you go on to cherry pick a handful of individuals. Statistics is not your strong suit.

So now we blame those being exploited, not the exploiters. How capitalist of you.

I DO NOT think the offspring are the problem, I'm blaming the elder generations that lead an entire generation into having $40k on average in student loan debt. AKA the system is broken.

You act like children are just magically capable of making adult decisions just because they finished public school and are eighteen years old. The drinking age is specifically 21 because the majority of adults in this country do not find 18 year-olds to be very responsible. Young people are simultaneously expected to make bad choices, but also good choices that make them wealthy. We all know that young adults are not known for making the best choices, as a whole. So why do we expect to just throw them out of the house at 18 and they will just be able to make it in this cutthroat world we live in?

Ravens do a better job of preparing their youth for success than humans these days.

I think his point is that the actions being taken do not fix the problem. Don't get lost in the weeds.

 

[Ashful]

Wow, three nuclear engineers in a country with no new nuclear plants being built, who are also from a well off family. You couldn't be more statistically irrelevant.

Not really. It was just another example in making wise career choices, before complaining about your inability to pay back student debt. Those three students were not from wealthy families, they all went thru the Navy, and were all smart kids. I could guess they were brought up with a stronger sense of responsibility than many others, but that would be stereotyping.

But I said my piece, and you're getting too emotional on this, SpaceBus. I don't see much point in arguing with you, anymore.

 

[brenndatomu]

Do you men really think that multiple generations really just love debt and want a lifetime of struggle? When will you come to terms with the system is broken, not your children?

Well, when people keep doing the same stupid stuff over and over again, (expecting different results?) it makes a person wonder.
I still say a vast majority of the (at least the US) population has not even basic finance skills...apparently nobody (other than a few good parents) is teaching the next generation how to run their basic household finances, delayed gratification (save up and pay cash if at all possible) how to live without borrowing unnecessarily, figure out what they want to do with their lives and then find the best way to get there...and if that involves taking on debt for a 2-4-6-8(+) year education, then how to do it the best way possible, other than just shrug, sign the loan docs, and then hope somebody else will pay it off for them. (and then also just hope that they will even work in the field that they were educated (and indebted) for.
But you are correct, its not the kids fault, they are a product of their parents, and education system...plenty of issues to discuss with those 2 items!

 

[SpaceBus]

I guess I need to clarify, I do not have, nor have I ever had, student loan debt. I am a medically retired veteran using my GI bill benefits to pay for school. I think all American citizens should be afforded the same opportunity I was without having to risk their life or health. Using the military as validation for "making good choices" is quite frankly the most absurd thing you could say. It's "saying the bad part out loud".


What is actually being said here is that people with high student loan debt who are unable to pay it off in a reasonable amount of time are making bad choices. Then to validate this point, people are using anecdotal evidence, such as the engineering students who got lucky enough to find a job at a nuclear power plant. That is a sector that will never expand and is only shrinking. Anecdotal evidence does not support anything. If wages for all these degree programs were really so great, then we wouldn't be having this discussion. If only 10% of graduates had issues paying back loans, I could agree that the system is largely working as it should. However, this is not the case.


This is basically a thread where a handful of entitled people are denying there's a problem while surrounded by a raging garbage fire. Where you are standing isn't on fire, so obviously there is no problem.

 

[EbS-P]

Do note, I wasn't making nearly the number I listed, I scaled for inflation.

And that was my first year out of an MSEE program, in my mid-30's. I worked thru my teens, twenties, and early thirties at anywhere from minimum wage to half that figure. Hence, why I had made the decision to finally kick my own butt to finish school, a little bit later in life than most, to get out of that rut.

But this is all aside from the point. I think @Shank0668 has already made my own point better than me, in saying you need to look at what you're spending, what it will yield, and make your own decision. Then live with it and honor it, good or bad, it was your decision.

And I don't disagree at all with you, bholler. The price of higher education is atrocious. But I think that issue will correct itself. If our government could just leave things alone, a generation will have learned where poor value lies, and not allow so many kids in the next generation to repeat the same stupid mistake(s). But you and I will always disagree on my "anyone" to your "everyone" view of the world. That's fine, we get along well enough, otherwise.

Cost of higher Ed won’t correct it self. after the 2008 crash per student spending had to drop. But for many/ most states (and last time I checked NC too) the inflation adjusted per student state spending was well below 2008 levels. I’m choosing to ignore recent inflation as I have not looked at data that recent.

Costs are up, state funding is down no realistic barrowing caps. How is this self correcting? Money is flowing in many parts of the economy.

We all would like to climb that economic ladder. Data proves a 4 year degree is the best bet to get as high as you can salary wise. If we wanted to reduce debt we would more heavily subsidize public education. It probably won’t reduce costs. 18-24 year olds down want nice accommodations, good professors (at least they complain a lot about the bad ones once they get somewhere), and really good food, and some extra curricular entertainment. These things aren’t cheap. If we promised them no out of pocket expenses maybe we could take the expectations down a notch or two but at this point I think that boat has sailed.

I’m teaching an honors first year seminar now. These are the best of the best at a moderately selective mid tier state school on the beach. They will do fine. But we have lots of students pulled in many directions. Jobs to take care of them selves and their families. One illness in their family and they can loose an entire semester. Covid has amplified this. If you asked me how do we improve graduation rates we need to cure mono and cancers.

The gender gap In hire ED is growing. I think we are at 67% female with this years in coming class.

All now students get finically counseling and exit. They may ignore it or discount it but it’s their for them.

Private institutions I believe are a huge driver in cost and therefore debt. I want to see average state school debt vs private.

 

[SpaceBus]

Well, when people keep doing the same stupid stuff over and over again, (expecting different results?) it makes a person wonder.
I still say a vast majority of the (at least the US) population has not even basic finance skills...apparently nobody (other than a few good parents) is teaching the next generation how to run their basic household finances, delayed gratification (save up and pay cash if at all possible) how to live without borrowing unnecessarily, figure out what they want to do with their lives and then find the best way to get there...and if that involves taking on debt for a 2-4-6-8(+) year education, then how to do it the best way possible, other than just shrug, sign the loan docs, and then hope somebody else will pay it off for them. (and then also just hope that they will even work in the field that they were educated (and indebted) for.
But you are correct, its not the kids fault, they are a product of their parents, and education system...plenty of issues to discuss with those 2 items!

Those children/graduates were told they could pay off the loans, only to find out they cannot. They want the loans forgiven because they were sold a lie. Just like people were mad when their Shelter/FireChief/turd furnace didn't work as advertised and wanted their money back. This is no different from any other industry lying to customers about a product and having to pay those customers back. You would be pretty mad if you were sold a bar of gold, only to get a bar of lead painted gold.

 

[Shank]

I guess I need to clarify, I do not have, nor have I ever had, student loan debt. I am a medically retired veteran using my GI bill benefits to pay for school. I think all American citizens should be afforded the same opportunity I was without having to risk their life or health. Using the military as validation for "making good choices" is quite frankly the most absurd thing you could say. It's "saying the bad part out loud".


What is actually being said here is that people with high student loan debt who are unable to pay it off in a reasonable amount of time are making bad choices. Then to validate this point, people are using anecdotal evidence, such as the engineering students who got lucky enough to find a job at a nuclear power plant. That is a sector that will never expand and is only shrinking. Anecdotal evidence does not support anything. If wages for all these degree programs were really so great, then we wouldn't be having this discussion. If only 10% of graduates had issues paying back loans, I could agree that the system is largely working as it should. However, this is not the case.


This is basically a thread where a handful of entitled people are denying there's a problem while surrounded by a raging garbage fire. Where you are standing isn't on fire, so obviously there is no problem.

While I do not disagree that wages are many times not great enough to support getting the degree, then why get the degree in the first place? This is not solely an issue of an unfair system. The people who are making the decision to go could very well research before they go. Before I graduated high school, I looked for jobs in what I wanted to major in. I looked at starting salary, available jobs, read job descriptions. I graduated and got almost exactly what I expected and now make more than anticipated, granted the cost of living now is far higher than I anticipated.

 

[Ashful]

While I do not disagree that wages are many times not great enough to support getting the degree, then why get the degree in the first place?

^ This.

,,, and SpaceBus, I wasn't citing the high pay of certain engineers as proof or validation that those unable to pay it off in a reasonable amount of time are making bad choices. Only you made that leap, no one else. I was simply responding to prior statements made in your debate with Shank, about the starting salaries of engineers, and both citing numbers in the $40k-$50k realm.

If you want to be an engineer, and you're not already independently wealthy, then for the love of God, don't choose one of those engineering disciplines that will earn you only $40k-$50k per year when you join the workforce. There are tens of millions of engineering jobs punching quite above that, without resorting to the rarified air of nuclear engineers with marine reactor experience.

 

[PaulOinMA]

Wow, three nuclear engineers in a country with no new nuclear plants being built, who are also from a well off family. You couldn't be more statistically irrelevant.

There was an excellent, multi-part show on PBS about Uranium a few years ago.

The show had a segment on R&D for the next generation of nuclear energy plants. Development and design of the way to use what is now considered spent fuel to use the energy in what is now just thrown in deep mines. Fascinating. Left me with the impression that there's a lot going on with nuclear energy.

Uranium Twisting the Dragons Tail | PBS

Explore one of the Earth's most controversial elements: uranium.

www.pbs.org

Jeez, lots of words in here for this old guy. Worth reading?

 

[SpaceBus]

While I do not disagree that wages are many times not great enough to support getting the degree, then why get the degree in the first place? This is not solely an issue of an unfair system. The people who are making the decision to go could very well research before they go. Before I graduated high school, I looked for jobs in what I wanted to major in. I looked at starting salary, available jobs, read job descriptions. I graduated and got almost exactly what I expected and now make more than anticipated, granted the cost of living now is far higher than I anticipated.

The research tells you to get the degree, which is my whole point. If you look at salaries for people with X degree, they are inflated. If all the statistics are inflated, then how do you make the "right" decision with flawed data? People are mad because we were told that we had to have a degree if we wanted to succeed, then that turned out to be false. Just like you would be mad if you were sold a product under false pretenses, millions of people are mad that their education turned out to be a grift.

^ This.

,,, and SpaceBus, I wasn't citing the high pay of certain engineers as proof or validation that those unable to pay it off in a reasonable amount of time are making bad choices. Only you made that leap, no one else. I was simply responding to prior statements made in your debate with Shank, about the starting salaries of engineers, and both citing numbers in the $40k-$50k realm.

If you want to be an engineer, and you're not already independently wealthy, then for the love of God, don't choose one of those engineering disciplines that will earn you only $40k-$50k per year when you join the workforce. There are tens of millions of engineering jobs punching quite above that, without resorting to the rarified air of nuclear engineers with marine reactor experience.

The engineering jobs paying those high wages are miniscule and statistically insignificant beyond pushing the average wages for all engineers higher than the median or majority of those employed in the field. You missed the point by cherry picking anecdotal evidence of high engineering wages. My generation, and those younger than mine, were sold a flawed product under the guise that it would guarantee our success in life. While I personally didn't get swindled, millions did, it could have easily happened to me.

 

[Shank]

The research tells you to get the degree, which is my whole point. If you look at salaries for people with X degree, they are inflated. If all the statistics are inflated, then how do you make the "right" decision with flawed data? People are mad because we were told that we had to have a degree if we wanted to succeed, then that turned out to be false. Just like you would be mad if you were sold a product under false pretenses, millions of people are mad that their education turned out to be a grift.


The engineering jobs paying those high wages are miniscule and statistically insignificant beyond pushing the average wages for all engineers higher than the median or majority of those employed in the field. You missed the point by cherry picking anecdotal evidence of high engineering wages. My generation, and those younger than mine, were sold a flawed product under the guise that it would guarantee our success in life. While I personally didn't get swindled, millions did, it could have easily happened to me.

I understand your point, and even agree. However, if you actually look for jobs, and not just "an average", you can actually get a realistic feel. I saw this when I was looking.

 

[brenndatomu]

Those children/graduates were told they could pay off the loans, only to find out they cannot. They want the loans forgiven because they were sold a lie. Just like people were mad when their Shelter/FireChief/turd furnace didn't work as advertised and wanted their money back. This is no different from any other industry lying to customers about a product and having to pay those customers back. You would be pretty mad if you were sold a bar of gold, only to get a bar of lead painted gold.

Its no different than buying a car or a house that turned out to be a POS...everyone would want out of that too, but its not gonna happen, unless maybe it was realized within some sort of warranty period or something...maybe that's the answer, see if Gerber Baby will include "crushed hopes and dreams" insurance on their life insurance plan.
But then here we go again, people just don't want to take responsibility for their own decisions/consequences.
As far as the Shelter furnace thing, everyone except maybe the people that bought the first model year should have been able to do a little research and avoid that pitfall, as it was pretty well documented after that.
But I would say most people just googled "wood furnace", picked the cheapest one, and their research consisted of the reviews on the HY-C website...not due diligence...and not my problem to pay off your credit card bill from a bad purchase decision.

 

[ABMax24]

Do you really think that every unemployed college graduate has an art degree? Are you also implying that art degrees are worthless in an increasingly media controlled world? Artists make all of the media that we consume. College students were told for the last 20+ years that we would be nothing without a degree and you can't make it on working alone. Do you really think people just like spending tens of thousands of dollar and four or more years of their lives to make $15/hr? As if they did it for no reason.

I was using juxtaposition to compare the 2.

When I was in high school and went to college and later trade school it was well known that arts degrees were low paying and the chance of getting a job in that field was low. If that's what a person wants to do then great, but it's not societies fault if they are underpaid or unemployed.

Very few people get to follow their passion and make lots of money. It's usually a choice between the 2. I chose the latter, because hopes and dreams don't pay mortgages or grocery bills.

 

[bholler]

I was using juxtaposition to compare the 2.

When I was in high school and went to college and later trade school it was well known that arts degrees were low paying and the chance of getting a job in that field was low. If that's what a person wants to do then great, but it's not societies fault if they are underpaid or unemployed.

Very few people get to follow their passion and make lots of money. It's usually a choice between the 2. I chose the latter, because hopes and dreams don't pay mortgages or grocery bills.

This is all absolutely true. But I will say our world would be a very boring place without those people who choose hopes and dreams.

 

[EbS-P]

Its no different than buying a car or a house that turned out to be a POS...everyone would want out of that too, but its not gonna happen, unless maybe it was realized within some sort of warranty period or something...maybe that's the answer, see if Gerber Baby will include "crushed hopes and dreams" insurance on their life insurance plan.
But then here we go again, people just don't want to take responsibility for their own decisions/consequences.
As far as the Shelter furnace thing, everyone except maybe the people that bought the first model year should have been able to do a little research and avoid that pitfall, as it was pretty well documented after that.
But I would say most people just googled "wood furnace", picked the cheapest one, and their research consisted of the reviews on the HY-C website...not due diligence...and not my problem to pay off your credit card bill from a bad purchase decision.

I get your point but you are already subsidizing someone’s education. Look at your state’s spending breakdown. the biggest single chunk is education. Being upset that the federal government said you didn’t pay enough on the front end we are going to make up for it now is essentially what happened. I get there are a lot of private schools that get federal paid via federal loans. And my argument starts to break down there but, I argue if states had done a better job funding state systems student debt would be lower and there is a point where this federal action would be unnecessary.

And let’s not for get the origins of this debt forgiveness. Winning an election enables certain actions. (look at the Supreme Court).


And to finish this post off. I do believe the sentiments of lazy partying college kids does not represent a majority of the students I interact with. ( Maybe 10%) Only two empty seats in my 8:00 am class today. (Covid-19 is still doing it’s thing. I’m thinking there should have been more staying home this morning). Campus’s have changed a lot in 10-15 years. Heck even in the last 6 I have seen large shifts in mentality of the students. The mental health crisis is real. And thank goodness students feel more comfortable disclosing what they are dealing with because we can help them. If they just go dark and try again next semester or year they are likely to find themselves in a similar situation in the future, racking up more debt and small chances of completing their degree. I have had more than one student be granted a medical withdrawal with full tuition refund, take some time taking care of themselves and come back when they are ready willing and ABLE to be successful with the full support of all our resources.