Student loan forgiveness

[Ashful]

Wow, great discussion, guys. I especially appreciated @Shank0668 's perspective as a recent graduate, and really loved this post by @old greybeard:

Doesn’t mean we are without compassion, but its for those who are true victims.
If mommy and daddy never made Bobby uncomfortable, and celebrated every time he received a participant trophy its on them for letting the village raise their child. They probably also didn’t set examples of fiscal discipline.
Nothing new here, same ancient issues in a new wrap.

Here's another inconvenient truth:

There are plenty of options to have manageable tuition.
-A lot of students are wasting money and time obtaining degrees that are nearly worthless.

A lot of students I graduated high school with went places solely based on sports or friends.

I became much more aware of this last point when I went back to school full-time in my late 20's, surrounded by a bunch of 18 year olds. Blame the parents, if you don't want to blame the kids, it doesn't change the truth of these statements.

While true, that is a factor that can be calculated prior to the commitment.

Exactly. This is really what this all boils down to. When people were blaming the banks for offering them mortgages they couldn't afford, I remembered my own self-discipline at age 23, in not buying the biggest house the bank told me I could afford. People need to be held accountable for their own stupid decisions, and stop blaming the enablers, who will always be there.

What is the point that that would be worth it, salary wise? It would at least have to start near six figures upon graduation.

My first salary after graduation was $137,177, scaled to 2022 dollars, and it only went up from there. I'm not doing what I love, but it's tolerable, and I chose a career that I knew would pay off.

Rough numbers, if I couldn't pay back what I had borrowed within 6 - 8 years of graduation, I'd say I had made some bad choices in my vocation or schooling. At some point, most folks want to get on with buying a house and having a family, and not dealing with student debt. But the choice is yours, in what major you choose, where you attend, and what debt you take on in that pursuit.

 

[bholler]

Wow, great discussion, guys. I especially appreciated @Shank0668 's perspective as a recent graduate, and really loved this post by @old greybeard:



Here's another inconvenient truth:



I became much more aware of this last point when I went back to school full-time in my late 20's, surrounded by a bunch of 18 year olds. Blame the parents, if you don't want to blame the kids, it doesn't change the truth of these statements.


Exactly. This is really what this all boils down to. When people were blaming the banks for offering them mortgages they couldn't afford, I remembered my own self-discipline at age 23, in not buying the biggest house the bank told me I could afford. People need to be held accountable for their own stupid decisions, and stop blaming the enablers, who will always be there.


My first salary after graduation was $137,177, scaled to 2022 dollars, and it only went up from there. I'm not doing what I love, but it's tolerable, and I chose a career that I knew would pay off.

Rough numbers, if I couldn't pay back what I had borrowed within 6 - 8 years of graduation, I'd say I had made some bad choices in my vocation or schooling. At some point, most folks want to get on with buying a house and having a family, and not dealing with student debt. But the choice is yours, in what major you choose, where you attend, and what debt you take on in that pursuit.

And it's great you were able to get a job paying that much. My first job out of college was in corporate product design paying about $25000. Luckily I didn't have any debt so it wasn't really a problem. But many did and those were about the only jobs available at the time. And there simply are not many entry level jobs that pay that well.

 

[Shank]

Wow, great discussion, guys. I especially appreciated @Shank0668 's perspective as a recent graduate, and really loved this post by @old greybeard:



Here's another inconvenient truth:



I became much more aware of this last point when I went back to school full-time in my late 20's, surrounded by a bunch of 18 year olds. Blame the parents, if you don't want to blame the kids, it doesn't change the truth of these statements.


Exactly. This is really what this all boils down to. When people were blaming the banks for offering them mortgages they couldn't afford, I remembered my own self-discipline at age 23, in not buying the biggest house the bank told me I could afford. People need to be held accountable for their own stupid decisions, and stop blaming the enablers, who will always be there.


My first salary after graduation was $137,177, scaled to 2022 dollars, and it only went up from there. I'm not doing what I love, but it's tolerable, and I chose a career that I knew would pay off.

Rough numbers, if I couldn't pay back what I had borrowed within 6 - 8 years of graduation, I'd say I had made some bad choices in my vocation or schooling. At some point, most folks want to get on with buying a house and having a family, and not dealing with student debt. But the choice is yours, in what major you choose, where you attend, and what debt you take on in that pursuit.

I bought my house around 23 as well. I remember a comment from my boss about how he couldn’t believe I bought such a cheap house and that surely I would be making more soon anyway (which I am, about 30% more than then, and also have a wife now that has a good paying job). The way I saw it, I didn’t want to have to try to live on what I might make.

 

[Ashful]

And it's great you were able to get a job paying that much. My first job out of college was in corporate product design paying about $25000.

Do note, I wasn't making nearly the number I listed, I scaled for inflation.

And that was my first year out of an MSEE program, in my mid-30's. I worked thru my teens, twenties, and early thirties at anywhere from minimum wage to half that figure. Hence, why I had made the decision to finally kick my own butt to finish school, a little bit later in life than most, to get out of that rut.

But this is all aside from the point. I think @Shank0668 has already made my own point better than me, in saying you need to look at what you're spending, what it will yield, and make your own decision. Then live with it and honor it, good or bad, it was your decision.

And I don't disagree at all with you, bholler. The price of higher education is atrocious. But I think that issue will correct itself. If our government could just leave things alone, a generation will have learned where poor value lies, and not allow so many kids in the next generation to repeat the same stupid mistake(s). But you and I will always disagree on my "anyone" to your "everyone" view of the world. That's fine, we get along well enough, otherwise.

 

[bholler]

Do note, I wasn't making nearly the number I listed, I scaled for inflation.

And that was my first year out of an MSEE program, in my mid-30's. I worked thru my teens, twenties, and early thirties at anywhere from minimum wage to half that figure. Hence, why I had made the decision to finally kick my own butt to finish school, a little bit later in life than most, to get out of that rut.

Yes I noticed that you scaled it

 

[Highbeam]

That is tuition. Not the cost (dorm,meal plans, fees, etc.) All for things that do not constitute education.

Yeah, those optional costs were zero for me and my daughter and others that chose not to incur them. We just lived at home and commuted to school.

 

[stoveliker]

Yeah, those costs were zero for me and my daughter and others that chose not to incur them.

That is not an option here. At least for the first year.

 

[Highbeam]

That is not an option here. At least for the first year.

But is attending a community college an option? In my case the state paid that community college tuition bill since we were both (daughter and myself) still in high school. Graduate with a diploma and 2 year degree at the same time.

Or is college just for the party? And this huge debt related to inefficiency?

 

[stoveliker]

That won't work well for every field.

And no, I did not party. I worked and got done without debt and then paid for my own wedding. And then we lived a few more years as students.

 

[brenndatomu]

Or is college just for the party?

It is for half the kids...maybe 2/3...pay your own dang (squandered) college bill punk! And stay off my lawn!

 

[bholler]

But is attending a community college an option? In my case the state paid that community college tuition bill since we were both (daughter and myself) still in high school. Graduate with a diploma and 2 year degree at the same time.

Or is college just for the party? And this huge debt related to inefficiency?

The nearest community college is an hour and 15 mins

 

[JerseyRobb]

I did not expect my first reply to be on this. It just happens to be directly tied to my profession in fundraising. I am 35 and work for a top public polytechnic university attempting to bridge the ever-widening gap in public funding. The recent explosion in intuition actually began circa 2009 during the most recent recession. States reduced their funding to their public institutions and never fully replaced the money. Insert inflation and universities became desperate. Some increased fees across the board, some sought to increase revenue by using public grants to grow their athletic system, hoping for NCAA money. Some built bougie attractions like mini water parks, trying to appeal to those who would otherwise travel to the southern coast for college. This is what I spend sleepless nights trying to navigate. When state funding was cut, many community colleges were actually absorbed into the larger state institutions. Meaning for many, a community college was never an option. Now for the bitter opinion of a millennial who will never enjoy social security and medicare.

We will likely be the first generation unable to collect on these services we contribute to. Those who are the loudest were silent when enormous unfunded tax cats are granted to corporations, and obviously the memes on PPP loans are abundant. The majority who are the loudest are also collectively responsible for the state of the matter by virtue of their votes. This may be the only way younger generations get a chance of a return, since the likelihood of a social security and medicare (As we know them today) are nil. The other way the older generations are responsible is something not often discussed. They established degree requirements for positions where only on the job training was needed, forcing younger people to get degrees. "Don't break your back like I had to" was a common sentiment through the 90's to younger people when discussing career plans.

It is not as simple as "I am paying for your student loans", it's less accurate than to say that I am paying (as designed) for your retirement, where you will collect more than you ever contributed. I am not a huge fan of across the board reductions, as it does nothing to fix the problem. Although the new payment does make strides to prevent interest from exploding. Remember, student loans can't be discharged in nearly all bankruptcy cases and the interest is sometimes double that of a mortgage rate.

It is a complicated mess with no single medium able to accurately attest they have the answer. I just submitted my public service loan forgiveness paperwork, with my fingers crossed it goes through. I wish they would change it to be prorated. Anyways, off to make a post about pellet stoves

 

[Highbeam]

The nearest community college is an hour and 15 mins

That commute becomes your job. I had to sit on a ferry one hour each way every day through the puget sound.

 

[ABMax24]

A "degree" is not a shortcut for experience or hard work. Unfortunately I feel that many young people feel this is true.

I live in a backwards place in this world, where tradespeople usually earn more than their University/College educated counterparts. In a recent study, 76% of Canadians don't want to work in the trades. Simply by supply and demand I am paid more because the supply of workers doesn't exist to meet the labour demand. A trade ticket (8 months or less total in school) easily earns $100k/yr, and $150k is attainable if you want to work extra hours, or take the initiative to move into supervision or management.

Why earn $45/hr as a Journeyman, when you can spend 4 years getting an arts degree and make $15/hr flipping burgers?

 

[Poindexter]

I readily agree this is a multifaceted problem that happens to be a hot button for me.

I will make every effort to keep my mouth shut so I can listen and learn.

FWIW I am a diploma RN with two further advanced degrees. There are folks, other RNs, who have been working shoulder to shoulder with me for 5+ years that cannot explain what I do - because they do not have the education or world view that I have. My most valuable skill is actually listening to MDs whine about stuff they think no one can fix, understanding the problem, and then explaining to nursing a thing we should try that might improve patient outcomes.

I am not a wizard or a magician, I have just invested in becoming really really good at what I do. Working full time all the way through in the 80s and 90s I was able to complete my diploma RN ($12k) and associates in Art (not kidding) (for another $3k) and then a BA in anthropology with a marine science minor at a good state school for another $20k borrowed. Total I finished with roughly $40k in debt and I am down to $1,709 payoff balance when the latest foolishness hit. And I focused on near shore sediment as a Marine Science minor... who else has a minor in 'the beach?'

On the one hand it absolutely yanks my crank to think I have my student loans paid off just in time to have an increased tax bill to start paying everyone else's student loans.

On the other, I look at my four kids and I simply cannot tell them they need a college degree to succeed.

I have one who earned a welding certification as an associate's degree, with a follow on second associate's a welding inspector. I have a list of welding shop owners west of the Mississippi who I will personally shiv with a homemade shank (shank with a homemade shiv?) when society collapses because they chose to treat my little girl as an object rather than a fully qualified welder. We are in the 21st century. Henry VIII has been dead a really long time.

I have another who failed that one 300 level class three times because she wouldn't give up. I don't know how much of her student loan debt I need to 'own' because I taught her to be stubborn, but her BS is in technical writing instead of whatever whatever engineering. She is buried. $10k, even as non taxed income is a drop in the bucket.

The other two got their fingers burned with nonchalance in the classroom as freshman. They have manageable student loan balances but know better than to go back without a firm, viable plan.

I do appreciate all the various commentary. It does, overall, help me feel like less of a failure as a dad as only one of my four took the bait.

I do agree getting a BA in Poly Sci at Harvard can open to door to doing many many very lucrative deals later. In general those aren't the sorts of families that burn wood for heat or worry about student loan debt as a personal/ family problem.

I would love to do a PhD in underwater archaeology at Eastern Carolina University. I have in my briefcase a letter of recommendation to that program from a prof at UNC-CH who is long dead. I could probably get into the program on that letter alone, filling out my application in crayon, and interviewing hung over. But it would never pay. Just the air fills to do any notable academic diving work on the Queen Anne's Revenge would be thousands of dollars. It would be something to consider if I won a lottery.

I have seriously looked at doing a PhD at Yale in nursing, focusing on decision theory, why do people make bad choices when they are already having bad health effects? I have my advisory committee picked out, with alternates for every slot; but I already know people mostly make bad choices because of inertia. This would be my best option of I wake up in a wheelchair a few months after a tragic car accident.

I thought about doing an MSW (Masters of Social Work) at UC-Berkeley , but they want $100k for that 2 year program just for tuition, never mind fees or books or housing. Is a MSW from Berkeley really worth that price compared to an MSW from U-square state? I don't think it is. It would be nice, but two years after graduation what an MSW has done is far more important than the degree on the wall.

I will make every reasonable effort to go back to scribbling in the fly leaf of my copy of Pursuit of Excellence and belay derailing this thread. Please carry on with my explicit blessing to do so.

 

[festerw]

A "degree" is not a shortcut for experience or hard work. Unfortunately I feel that many young people feel this is true.

My entire high school career (2000 graduate) was spent by older people telling me I HAD to get a degree to get a decent job. There was never a question other than "where are you going to college?" When discussing after HS plans, I watched my classmates that answered something different get berated for wasting their time.

Which is how we ended up with jobs requiring a Master's and only paying $35k/year and skilled trades jobs searching for workers.

 

[Ashful]

Now for the bitter opinion of a millennial who will never enjoy social security and medicare.

...This may be the only way younger generations get a chance of a return, since the likelihood of a social security and medicare (As we know them today) are nil.

It is not as simple as "I am paying for your student loans", it's less accurate than to say that I am paying (as designed) for your retirement, where you will collect more than you ever contributed.

Interesting post, but you are sadly misinformed and brainwashed on the whole social security situation. It is very unlikely social security will go away during your lifetime. Changes to the system will continue as our population and expected lifespan changes, I've watched my own eligibility age go up and up during my working career. But short of some nation-ending nuclear catastrophe, social security is here to stay.

Lesson: don't rely on social security. It never has been, and never will be, a good way to live. It's a safety net for those who have nothing else, and nothing more. At your age, I was max'ing out my allowable IRA contributions every year. Sometimes it meant eating nothing but Ramen noodles that month, but I made it happen, since I knew how compounding interest works.

A "degree" is not a shortcut for experience or hard work. Unfortunately I feel that many young people feel this is true.

I live in a backwards place in this world, where tradespeople usually earn more than their University/College educated counterparts.

I know plenty of tradespeople who make more than me, not that backwards. These are invariably the guys who went out on their own, started their own small business and grew it, not the schleps happy to just hump shingles up a roof all day. But the fact remains, I know many tradespeople who do extremely well, especially in the last two years.

 

[PaulOinMA]

The whole idea is ridiculous for multiple reasons.

-$10,000 won't even touch most peoples debt.

$10k makes a big difference to a lot of people.

• 32.2% of student borrowers owe $10,000 or less in federal debt; 74.2% owe $40,000 or less.

Student Loan Debt Statistics [2024]: Average + Total Debt

Find student loan debt statistics, including the national debt balance, average individual balance, and annual growth rates.

educationdata.org

 

[SpaceBus]

Not everyone can stay at mom and dad's for school. Not every town community college has the curriculum for everyone. Some programs, like welding engineering, are only at a few schools. If you want to work in motorsports engineering you have to go to Charlotte NC. Not every program is available at every school, you guys treat them like they are all identical. My local four year university has a very limited course catalog, just as an example. So if you you are born in Downeast Maine and want an undergrad degree that is not business, biology, or art related, you are SOL if you want to save money by staying at home.

So many of you are cherry picking the most ideal circumstances. Plus a lot of you are boomers who had a vastly different economy. I'm seeing many Gen X comments as well, and still a different economy than my generation walked into in 2008-09. There were 50 year old folks with masters degrees working shoulder to shoulder with me at a Wendy's at seventeen years old. The world is not black and white, but I will agree some students were poorly advised by greedy schools into curriculum the students didn't really need or want. What is not being said is that my generation was told that unless we want to flip burgers or put money in a register our whole lives we HAD to go to a university. We were all but forced into college, and then came to find that it's not really making things better.

If you build something yourself, and it doesn't work out, who's fault is it? If a whole generation of children entered the workforce unready, who's fault is that? Unbelievable that millennials and younger generations somehow are not a product of the sins of our fathers, like every other generation before and instead it is all our fault. Do you men really think that multiple generations really just love debt and want a lifetime of struggle? When will you come to terms with the system is broken, not your children?

 

[SpaceBus]

A "degree" is not a shortcut for experience or hard work. Unfortunately I feel that many young people feel this is true.

I live in a backwards place in this world, where tradespeople usually earn more than their University/College educated counterparts. In a recent study, 76% of Canadians don't want to work in the trades. Simply by supply and demand I am paid more because the supply of workers doesn't exist to meet the labour demand. A trade ticket (8 months or less total in school) easily earns $100k/yr, and $150k is attainable if you want to work extra hours, or take the initiative to move into supervision or management.

Why earn $45/hr as a Journeyman, when you can spend 4 years getting an arts degree and make $15/hr flipping burgers?

Do you really think that every unemployed college graduate has an art degree? Are you also implying that art degrees are worthless in an increasingly media controlled world? Artists make all of the media that we consume. College students were told for the last 20+ years that we would be nothing without a degree and you can't make it on working alone. Do you really think people just like spending tens of thousands of dollar and four or more years of their lives to make $15/hr? As if they did it for no reason.

 

[JerseyRobb]

Interesting post, but you are sadly misinformed and brainwashed on the whole social security situation. It is very unlikely social security will go away during your lifetime. Changes to the system will continue as our population and expected lifespan changes, I've watched my own eligibility age go up and up during my working career. But short of some nation-ending nuclear

I specifically said "as we know know them today". It is not brainwashing, the plan was always a sort of pyramid scheme requiring a healthy size next generation. The age will likely need to increase again soon.

Starting off a paragraph by saying "lesson" when you have no idea about the background of the individual is disrespectful at best. It shows you're not open to listening to what others say when you use such verbiage with strangers.

While I owe no one information about myself, I have a healthy retirement plan, several lots of land and biggest of all no kids ha ha ha. We could likely retire when I'm 45 and maintain the same lifestyle thanks to some books my husband has published. Having multiple ways to heat our lake house is part of my neurotic need for backup plans.

I do find it interesting how you chose to ignore the substantive portion directly relevant to the topic of why so many student loans exist.

 

[JerseyRobb]

Do you really think that every unemployed college graduate has an art degree? Are you also implying that art degrees are worthless in an increasingly media controlled world? Artists make all of the media that we consume. College students were told for the last 20+ years that we would be nothing without a degree and you can't make it on working alone. Do you really think people just like spending tens of thousands of dollar and four or more years of their lives to make $15/hr? As if they did it for no reason.

So much this. I work at one of the top ranked R1 polytechnic universities in the country.

The number of engineering firms expecting new structural, Mechanical and architectural engineers to work for $40k per year (in the NYC Metro) for the first 5 years at 60+hrs a week is pathetic.

They have to put off paying their loans so the interest explodes over those years as they "play by the rules" and their debt nearly doubles.

I come from the land of dirt roads and intersections without stop signs. People leave those places due to a lack of opportunity. The prior generations made degrees prerequisites for positions that only require on the job training. Then they laugh at people struggling to accomplish it. It saddens me.

-Fundraising professional for a stem university

 

[JerseyRobb]

But is attending a community college an option? In my case the state paid that community college tuition bill since we were both (daughter and myself) still in high school. Graduate with a diploma and 2 year degree at the same time.

Or is college just for the party? And this huge debt related to inefficiency?

Community colleges have been consolidating over the last 15 years since states reduced funding during the last recession. I am fortunate to live near several, but many across the nation are not so lucky. Pennsylvania for example, previously had more scattered across the state, but they slowly became PSU satellite campuses and tuition quadrupled.

 

[JerseyRobb]

I readily agree this is a multifaceted problem that happens to be a hot button for me.

I will make every effort to keep my mouth shut so I can listen and learn.

FWIW I am a diploma RN with two further advanced degrees. There are folks, other RNs, who have been working shoulder to shoulder with me for 5+ years that cannot explain what I do - because they do not have the education or world view that I have. My most valuable skill is actually listening to MDs whine about stuff they think no one can fix, understanding the problem, and then explaining to nursing a thing we should try that might improve patient outcomes.

I am not a wizard or a magician, I have just invested in becoming really really good at what I do. Working full time all the way through in the 80s and 90s I was able to complete my diploma RN ($12k) and associates in Art (not kidding) (for another $3k) and then a BA in anthropology with a marine science minor at a good state school for another $20k borrowed. Total I finished with roughly $40k in debt and I am down to $1,709 payoff balance when the latest foolishness hit. And I focused on near shore sediment as a Marine Science minor... who else has a minor in 'the beach?'

On the one hand it absolutely yanks my crank to think I have my student loans paid off just in time to have an increased tax bill to start paying everyone else's student loans.

On the other, I look at my four kids and I simply cannot tell them they need a college degree to succeed.

I have one who earned a welding certification as an associate's degree, with a follow on second associate's a welding inspector. I have a list of welding shop owners west of the Mississippi who I will personally shiv with a homemade shank (shank with a homemade shiv?) when society collapses because they chose to treat my little girl as an object rather than a fully qualified welder. We are in the 21st century. Henry VIII has been dead a really long time.

I have another who failed that one 300 level class three times because she wouldn't give up. I don't know how much of her student loan debt I need to 'own' because I taught her to be stubborn, but her BS is in technical writing instead of whatever whatever engineering. She is buried. $10k, even as non taxed income is a drop in the bucket.

The other two got their fingers burned with nonchalance in the classroom as freshman. They have manageable student loan balances but know better than to go back without a firm, viable plan.

I do appreciate all the various commentary. It does, overall, help me feel like less of a failure as a dad as only one of my four took the bait.

I do agree getting a BA in Poly Sci at Harvard can open to door to doing many many very lucrative deals later. In general those aren't the sorts of families that burn wood for heat or worry about student loan debt as a personal/ family problem.

I would love to do a PhD in underwater archaeology at Eastern Carolina University. I have in my briefcase a letter of recommendation to that program from a prof at UNC-CH who is long dead. I could probably get into the program on that letter alone, filling out my application in crayon, and interviewing hung over. But it would never pay. Just the air fills to do any notable academic diving work on the Queen Anne's Revenge would be thousands of dollars. It would be something to consider if I won a lottery.

I have seriously looked at doing a PhD at Yale in nursing, focusing on decision theory, why do people make bad choices when they are already having bad health effects? I have my advisory committee picked out, with alternates for every slot; but I already know people mostly make bad choices because of inertia. This would be my best option of I wake up in a wheelchair a few months after a tragic car accident.

I thought about doing an MSW (Masters of Social Work) at UC-Berkeley , but they want $100k for that 2 year program just for tuition, never mind fees or books or housing. Is a MSW from Berkeley really worth that price compared to an MSW from U-square state? I don't think it is. It would be nice, but two years after graduation what an MSW has done is far more important than the degree on the wall.

I will make every reasonable effort to go back to scribbling in the fly leaf of my copy of Pursuit of Excellence and belay derailing this thread. Please carry on with my explicit blessing to do so.

Side rant...
I hate how diploma programs have slowly died out. Many that exist are barely accredited with horrible NCLEX pass rates.

 

[Ashful]

I do find it interesting how you chose to ignore the substantive portion directly relevant to the topic of why so many student loans exist.

Oh, I didn't ignore it. I actually thought that was good information, an overall good post, and I'm sorry for not saying it.

I was only responding to the portion that was in error, namely beginning with, "opinion of a millennial who will never enjoy social security and medicare," followed by two more mentions of it. I am sorry that I missed a subsequent qualifier of "(as we known it)", you had not applied that to your initial statement on the subject.

The plan is not as simple as a pyramid scheme, but yes, it has problems. We all know it has problems, and frankly always has. But at the same time, please don't try to sell us on being, "a millennial who will never enjoy social security and medicare." These were your exact words, and this is simply untrue.