Talked with dealer and experienced other person on an OAK...What the pellet!!!!

[bostonfan49]

So I read my M55 Technical manual/"A Fresh-air kit is recommended for all installations. Failure to install air may result in improper combustion as well the unit smoking during power failure" Naturally, Enviro wants to cover their legal butts..but I would have to think that the above statement is a true one. Because my wife ( me too) will freak out and at least be very upset if we get smoke in the house, a UPS is on the front burner as well as an OAK install. Today I went to my dealer for his opinion on the OAK and then a 20 year wood/coal/pellet veteran who is well past his eyeballs in installs to the point where I don't know if he and his other install person can help me. The old veteran says "whenever possible, any pellet stove should have an OAK....and your model is no exception and it will improve your overall heating of your house (temp and draft) It will produce a better combustion and help in in the reduction of smoke in the house. He asked me if the liner that the dealer put up my chimney was insulated? I said, No it wasn't! He said that is mistake number two. He said your liner, even if cleaned yearly will not last anywhere near as long as an insulated liner. He did however, say that as long as you run your stove on heat 3 or higher you should be OK! Creosote isn't much of a problem on the higher temps, just never run your stove on low, your creating cresote and making your stove dirtier sooner than need be. He was not as positive on his coming out to do a mag check. (this guy is very old school) He said the mag gauge should really only be used to detect blockages in the exhaust. He says "you need to learn your stove, every stove is different house to house, every pellet is different, you need to experiment, it's like learning how to ride a bike." Personally, I would like to know what a gauge says...SO then, I go to my dealer and talk to the person who has all the knowledge about my stove. I mention an OAK and I am told, it can't be done! I then take my M55 manual out of my pocket and show them the advice from Enviro.....and the response is, "and how would you propose this be done?" So after I told this person about basically going straight out the chimney, the person replied back....."Your crazy and do you know that even if you did put an intake duct on it, that inlet only takes in 30% of the intake air? and it won't have any effect on reducing smoke if the power goes out"........at this point, my phone went off and this person turned to help a customer and I left wondering how the stove sucks in the other 70% of the intake air??? Sorry for the long post, but I want to get some more feedback! Thanks, Bill

 

[BradH70]

Nice post bostonfan49. This seems to be a long standing subject on this forum. I have the same stove and am looking at all the options for installing an OAK. In theory, the old man is correct and the OAK should provide all of those benefits. As far as the liner life, I can't really say. I had a professional stove/chimney guy come and double check everything and install a new cap this spring and he did not mention anything about the liner not lasting. The mag check is important. I did it myself and found that the stove ran much better once the damper was adjusted to give the proper mag level in the burn chamber. I even marked the correct location of the damper adjuster just in case it ever gets bumped while cleaning.

And the OAK provides only 30% of the air intake? Well, that seems a little out of whack to me. Why would an OAK even be necessary then?

 

[JHASS]

I don't have the insert but my free standing unit draws 100% of it's combustion air thru
the OAK that I installed. The dealer that I purchased my stove from said that they never
installed OAKs on the stoves they installed and I was nuts for doing it. I did it anyway
because that is what was recommended in the manual. Since I put the stove in we have
had several power outages, and I have never had any smoke come out of the stove it
all went out the chimney like it is supposed to. So if I were you I would install an OAK.

 

[bostonfan49]

Thanks....I like the comment from Fire God, "Drill a hole, not I" like....Duh, why didn't I think of that? Well, I'm a dumb newbie that's why. I don't have a clue about the 30/7% air thing. I don't mind a pipe or rectangular vent sticking out of my fireplace, the only person who might see it is the meter reader, besides now we are actually using our fireplace. Now that I know where the slider adjuster is and fiddling around with it, I just need to know where the screw hole is that I have to remove....top right corner??? Bill

 

[BradH70]

Yes, the screw is in the top right corner of the glass door. I recommend turning off the stove, giving it a good cleaning and take the screw out at that point before you do any adjustments. The screw will be very hot if you try to take it out while the stove is running.

When I did the adjustment, I made sure that the combustion blower and auger trim were both at #3 and had a full hopper of Okanagan pellets. I put the unit in Manual mode and ran it at heat level 5 for 1 hour and I used a digital low vacuum gauge to measure the vacuum in the burn chamber, gaining access by removing the screw in the top right corner of the glass door. The initial vacuum reading was 0.28 and as the temperature in the burn chamber increases it finally steadied out to 0.23. I gained access to the damper adjustment level by removing the left side panel.

The way a vacuum is theoretically measured ( in inches/H2O) is by assuming that you have an infinite body of water with a single tube sticking out of it. If you were to suck on that tube, like a straw, it would draw water up into the tube a certain distance based on how hard you were sucking. So, if your burn chamber has a vacuum of .20-.23 in/H2O and you are trying to get a vacuum of 0.15-0.17 in/H2O then you can safely say that your flue draft is to strong and you need to close the damper a bit (push the lever IN).

So my stove started out at 0.23 after running for 1 hour at heat level #5. I would push the lever in by about 1/8†increments and let the system settle for about 5 or 10 minutes, then push the lever in another 1/8â€. I did this until I got pretty close to the manufacturer recommendation. When I was done, the vacuum was 0.16-0.17 in/H2O. And by the way, the lever is HOT because it is a direct link to the exhaust vent so wear a glove.

I did noticed a difference in the flame when I was done, it was “lazier†then with the original damper setting and the heat output is higher as well, probably because there is less draw on the fire box so the heat stays in it a bit longer.

If you have access to a digital low vacuum meter, then this should be a relatively easy process. I used a 12†piece of 8mm aluminum tube to go into the hole in the door and then a 3 foot piece of silicon tube between that and the meter to isolate the meter from the heat.

 

[jtakeman]

Thanks....I like the comment from Fire God, "Drill a hole, not I" like....Duh, why didn't I think of that? Well, I'm a dumb newbie that's why. I don't have a clue about the 30/7% air thing. I don't mind a pipe or rectangular vent sticking out of my fireplace, the only person who might see it is the meter reader, besides now we are actually using our fireplace. Now that I know where the slider adjuster is and fiddling around with it, I just need to know where the screw hole is that I have to remove....top right corner??? Bill

Fire God is SmokeyTheBear. He has a suttle way of making his points! I usually get a chuckle form them! Many a good info from STB. ;-)

 

[bostonfan49]

Dang it J-....that's the 2nd time I've messed up the name/tag....now maybe I'll here from STB, Bill

 

[tjnamtiw]

flexible INSULATED pipe up chimney????

 

[bostonfan49]

Yup! I saw different lengths, with 3/4" white insulation with a wire,foil backing. His exclamation was that with the heating/cooling of the metal, produces condensation, the fly ash sticks and accumulates over and over....the insulation prevents the rapid heating/cooling. That's what he said.......so go ahead and laugh!

 

[Waterbug]

My Englander stove came with an OAK kit, but I had to provide the exhaust/chimney. That kinda made me think that the manufacturer thought that an OAK was a necessity. You don't get unecessary things for free . (I realize that it was included in the price of the stove, but the increase in price made the stove less price competative but a better product.)

 

[tjnamtiw]

Yup! I saw different lengths, with 3/4" white insulation with a wire,foil backing. His exclamation was that with the heating/cooling of the metal, produces condensation, the fly ash sticks and accumulates over and over....the insulation prevents the rapid heating/cooling. That's what he said.......so go ahead and laugh!

Learn something new every day. Not laughing here. Usually on a reline I believe they use flex pipe to get past the smoke shelf. The top of the chimney is sealed with a plate so who knows if he's right or not. I never heard insulated pipe mentioned here by any of the guys that have inserts. Too late for me. I'm not throwing away $600 worth of pipe!

Addition: also creosote is not a problem IF you are burning properly with a good brisk flame and enough air. That goes even for low heat settings, since you are not starved for air like you are when you cut back a wood fire for the night, which is when creosote forms. You should have a good fuel/air ratio at all settings in a pellet stove. I think he was going back to his 'roots' on that statement.

 

[VTrider]

Hiya Bill, I see you've found yourself in the great 'to Oak or not to Oak' situation - congrats, because every serious pellet stove burner should find themselves in this mess sooner or later. Anyway, interesting advice you've gotten from your dealer - you'll see this time after time again, was this from the place over in Williston? I just can't wrap my head around it that almost every major manufacturer now recommends (highly recommends if your Enviro) an OAK, yet you'll be hard pressed to find a dealer it seems that will recommend one - my own dealer (over in Colchester) as well seems to view the topic as 'why would you even think about adding one?' Then again, they couldn't understand why I wanted a thermostat on the stove as well 'you'll wear out your ignitor' they said, guess they forgot about the high/low setting?

I've been burning 7 years without an OAK, just installed this past fall the 2nd pellet stove for entire home heating. I plan on adding OAKs to both stoves next season to see if it works out for me, if so - great! win-win, if not - no loss IMO.

 

[ToddO]

My dealer told me NOT to install an OAK. He told me that during cold periods it was his experience that there was a lot of condensation problems. My stove seems to run fine without it. I say that with this being the first year with the stove so I'm a rookie but so far have loved the heat as compared to the old propane furnace. I'm heating a 2200 SF two story home.

 

[John97]

Yet another dealer who is against OAK...



Shocking.

No, not really.


If you read the various OAK related threads, you will quickly become familiar with this phenomenon. Most dealers fight you on an OAK install, and those of us who fight back and prevail are happier in the end.

 

[UMainah]

I don't understand why so many dealers are anti-oak. Why would you want to suck air out of your home that you are spending hundreds of dollars to heat?

 

[smoke show]

I don't understand why so many dealers are anti-oak.

Cause they wanna do as little as possible for the most amount of money. IMO

 

[JoeS]

I don't understand why so many dealers are anti-oak. Why would you want to suck air out of your home that you are spending hundreds of dollars to heat?

Aren't you doing the same thing with any furnace?

I don't believe my Natural Gas Furnaces have an OAK?

 

[smoke show]

I don't understand why so many dealers are anti-oak. Why would you want to suck air out of your home that you are spending hundreds of dollars to heat?

Aren't you doing the same thing with any furnace?

I don't believe my Natural Gas Furnaces have an OAK?

My 90+ LP furnace has outside combustion air.

I believe most do.