This old house segment

[Ctwoodtick]

Just saw that there is new TOH segment on cleaning creosote from a fireplace.
Trigger warning- he mentions pine is a big culprit for creosote. 😞

 

[begreen]

Perpetuating an east coast fable. If the pine or any wood is wet it shouldn't be burned. He is also saying creosote comes from fossil fuels in this case wood.

 

[joop]

thats ok, keeps pine cheap

 

[EbS-P]

ten fireplaces in the house. Keep that chimney sweep busy!

 

[begreen]

ten fireplaces in the house. Keep that chimney sweep busy!

Hope they all have dampers that are closed. Imagine all the heat heading up those flues.

 

[EbS-P]

Just that kitchen one alone would suck a lot of heat. But it almost looked like they had down lights installed in there. I doubt they burn much in it.

 

[Ashful]

Perpetuating an east coast fable.

But are you sure that pine produces no more creosote in a fireplace than hardwoods? In a stove, the volatiles coming off either are reburned in a secondary burn system, so a non-issue. But a fireplace with a cool exterior wall is a different scenario, altogether. If pine pitch indeed creates creosote, then deposits will be higher when meeting a cold masonry wall.

There's truth in nearly every stereotype or fable, the error usually comes from their universal application to new scenarios, not in their origin.

 

[gthomas785]

They put down lights in the fireplace for filming. Guess I've watched too many of these segments since I know that.

 

[all night moe]

But are you sure that pine produces no more creosote in a fireplace than hardwoods? In a stove, the volatiles coming off either are reburned in a secondary burn system, so a non-issue. But a fireplace with a cool exterior wall is a different scenario, altogether. If pine pitch indeed creates creosote, then deposits will be higher when meeting a cold masonry wall.

There's truth in nearly every stereotype or fable, the error usually comes from their universal application to new scenarios, not in their origin.

I believe you to be correct. I wouldn't say pine is a extraordinary creosote maker, but I also believe it shouldn't be burned low and slow in conventional stoves and fireplaces. Feed it some air.

 

[gthomas785]

But are you sure that pine produces no more creosote in a fireplace than hardwoods? In a stove, the volatiles coming off either are reburned in a secondary burn system, so a non-issue. But a fireplace with a cool exterior wall is a different scenario, altogether. If pine pitch indeed creates creosote, then deposits will be higher when meeting a cold masonry wall.

There's truth in nearly every stereotype or fable, the error usually comes from their universal application to new scenarios, not in their origin.

I'm sure. I burn plenty of softwoods in my fireplace and they tend to go up hot and fast without much smoke.

 

[kborndale]

But are you sure that pine produces no more creosote in a fireplace than hardwoods? In a stove, the volatiles coming off either are reburned in a secondary burn system, so a non-issue. But a fireplace with a cool exterior wall is a different scenario, altogether. If pine pitch indeed creates creosote, then deposits will be higher when meeting a cold masonry wall.

There's truth in nearly every stereotype or fable, the error usually comes from their universal application to new scenarios, not in their origin.

Creosote is produced when a fire is smoldering. An open fireplace normally doesn't do much smoldering, open fires burn hot and complete.

 

[bigealta]

I think the pine problems on the east coast are because of burning non fully seasoned pine And Wet pine. With our high humidity and frequent rain it's almost impossible to have very dry pine. It soaks up rain and humidity more than most of our hardwoods. Unless pine is covered extremely well or inside a shed it is difficult to get it properly dry. Wet and unseasoned pine does smoke like crazy as does many other woods too.

You can easily see the Black sticky smoke when you burn non dry pine here. Same is true with cherry too though.

 

[mellow]

In regards to a fireplace, as that smoke mixes with huge amounts of air travels up that chimney that gets colder every foot away from the fire particulates will stick, pine or not.

But I do hold the belief that the tar particulates in pine has to go somewhere and that usually is on the coolest spot of the chimney.

Older interesting read on the science behind burning pine: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/08/120809133803.htm

 

[gthomas785]

In regards to a fireplace, as that smoke mixes with huge amounts of air travels up that chimney that gets colder every foot away from the fire particulates will stick, pine or not.

But I do hold the belief that the tar particulates in pine has to go somewhere and that usually is on the coolest spot of the chimney.

Older interesting read on the science behind burning pine: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/08/120809133803.htm

It all comes down to complete/incomplete combustion. Pine resin is combustible and does not necessarily produce any residue when burned. However, if burned on the cooler side (due to wet wood or even a shoddily built fire), it can volatilize without combusting and then re-deposit on surfaces. This is not too different than hardwoods which also release a bunch of nasty long chain and polyaromatic crud as they get heated up. Dry wood just gives you higher flame temperatures causing all that stuff to further pyrolize / degrade into CO2.

The paper you linked is interesting, but I think it's about particles released by living pine trees not from burning. I know they do produce some very sticky pollen that coats my solar panels in the spring and is difficult to wash off.

 

[Ashful]

Creosote is produced when a fire is smoldering. An open fireplace normally doesn't do much smoldering, open fires burn hot and complete.

I'd be willing to bet I've burned many dozens more cords more than the average forum member, in open fireplaces. We had four fireplaces in the house in which I grew up, and we kept at least two of them going nearly 24/7 some winters. Literally hundreds of cords of wood, over two decades in that house, I have no shortage of personal experience with open fireplaces.

I'd watch the chimney crew cleaning our multiple chimneys each year, and tell you they were indeed getting plenty of crap out of them, way more than I get per season out of either of my stoves today. So I don't buy your assumption that fireplaces burn hot and complete. The evidence would say otherwise.

 

[kborndale]

I'd be willing to bet I've burned many dozens more cords more than the average forum member, in open fireplaces. We had four fireplaces in the house in which I grew up, and we kept at least two of them going nearly 24/7 some winters. Literally hundreds of cords of wood, over two decades in that house, I have no shortage of personal experience with open fireplaces.

I'd watch the chimney crew cleaning our multiple chimneys each year, and tell you they were indeed getting plenty of crap out of them, way more than I get per season out of either of my stoves today. So I don't buy your assumption that fireplaces burn hot and complete. The evidence would say otherwise.

That's 100% opposite of my experience with fireplaces. We would sweep our open fireplaces in multiple houses every 5 years and they were still quite clean.

 

[Ashful]

That's 100% opposite of my experience with fireplaces. We would sweep our open fireplaces in multiple houses every 5 years and they were still quite clean.

How many cords per season were you putting through each one? Were you actually using them for heating, or just the occasional ambience fire?

 

[kborndale]

How many cords per season were you putting through each one? Were you actually using them for heating, or just the occasional ambience fire?

Wasn't 24/7 heating, but would definitely put 5 cords thru them between cleanings which is about the same as what goes thru my wood stoves between cleanings and the difference between the two would be night and day. When comparing the same amount of dry wood put thru an open fireplace vs a wood stove, the fireplace will burn much cleaner.

 

[mellow]

Might be a difference in fireplace style playing into the amount of creosote among other factors.

 

[EbS-P]

Might be a difference in fireplace style playing into the amount of creosote among other factors.

My guess is that HUGE cold fireback wall would take a long time to get up to temp and short fun fires never got it there. That’s neat feature but sure not practical from today’s perspective.

 

[bigealta]

Well just like woodstoves, fireplaces can be very different. Anything from huge old time openings like in the video to rumford style and everything in between. Also interior vs exterior fireplaces. Certainly not one size fits all burning scenarios.

 

[Ctwoodtick]

I think the pine problems on the east coast are because of burning non fully seasoned pine And Wet pine. With our high humidity and frequent rain it's almost impossible to have very dry pine. It soaks up rain and humidity more than most of our hardwoods. Unless pine is covered extremely well or inside a shed it is difficult to get it properly dry. Wet and unseasoned pine does smoke like crazy as does many other woods too.

You can easily see the Black sticky smoke when you burn non dry pine here. Same is true with cherry too though.

I remember hearing what I thought was the best explanation of the perceived increase in chimney fires because of pine. It goes some thing like- Person burns a lot of wet hardwoods for a while, and of course builds up a bunch of creosote. The temperature of the fire and the flames them selves don’t quite have the umpf to ignite a chimney fire, so the person figures that all is well. Same person gets their hands on some pine, which can dry out much faster, or perhaps they get some scrap dry lumber, and put it in the stove. It burns a whole heck of a lot hotter and better overall and creates the conditions for a chimney fire. Person now believes that pine is the culprit, when, in fact, it was wet hardwood all along. That was creating the problem.

 

[begreen]

If pine pitch indeed creates creosote, then deposits will be higher when meeting a cold masonry wall.

All wood fire vapors can create creosote when they condense on a cold surface, not just pine.

 

[bigealta]

All wood vapors can create creosote when they condense on a cold surface, not just pine.

Sure but how much per lb. for each species?

 

[bigealta]

I remember hearing what I thought was the best explanation of the perceived increase in chimney fires because of pine. It goes some thing like- Person burns a lot of wet hardwoods for a while, and of course builds up a bunch of creosote. The temperature of the fire and the flames them selves don’t quite have the umpf to ignite a chimney fire, so the person figures that all is well. Same person gets their hands on some pine, which can dry out much faster, or perhaps they get some scrap dry lumber, and put it in the stove. It burns a whole heck of a lot hotter and better overall and creates the conditions for a chimney fire. Person now believes that pine is the culprit, when, in fact, it was wet hardwood all along. That was creating the problem.

I don't think the old timers who heated and swept chimneys in every house for 1000's of years up to maybe 100 or so years ago were that simple/stupid.