Total Newbie Needs Help Deciphering This Whole Pellet/Corn Stove Quagmire

[wagarfamilyfarm]

Okay all,

Like most Newbie's to this and similar sites, I've been lurking around for a while and doing my best to learn from the obvious think-tank that exists here, however at the end of the day each persons situation and installation is slightly different and I am looking for some help around my specific wants/needs. So here is the situation:

We live on 5 acres in Brown County Indiana and moved here just 4 years ago. The home is a manufactured home (not mobile home) and is a two-story 2800sqft salt-box style home. The primary heating source is a new (1 year old) Carrier Infinity LP Furnace (wish I would have done a multi-fuel furnace instead of this but hindsight is always 20/20). As such, the LP is killing us each year and for the past 3 years I've told myself that I was going to purchase a pellet/corn stove in the spring/summer (due to lower costs in those months) yet each time I figure we got through last winter without it why go for it now.... Well once again it's beginning to be that time of year and we just need to breakdown and get one. Our typical monthly LP costs during the months of Nov, Dec, Jan, Feb, Mar run 400-450 per month (OUCH!) so I know that this thing will pay for itself very quickly. So what's my quagmire?

As noted above we're in a 2800sqft salt-box styled home, the only area that is open to both the first and second floors is our small entryway (where the stairs go to the 2nd floor), and is about 8'x10' (see attachment for full drawing of the layout) but there is no place right near this location to place the stove. In addition, since this is near the front of the house, we would prefer not to have the vent pipe running there but instead out the back of the house.

So based upon the square footage of the home the location of where we would desire to place the stove and the location of the only real method for getting the air to the 2nd floor (again see the attachment), what stove would you recommend. The reality is that there are so very many of them out there that I just don't know how to even begin to eliminate either manufacturers or models in order to get down to a respectable few that would meet our needs so that we can move forward with making our final decision.

As a side note, we would prefer one that will do multiple fuel sources (i.e. pellets, corn, cherry pits, etc, etc, etc)

Thanks in advance

WagarFamilyFarm.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Welcome to the forum.

You might want to look into something that can hook into your current heating system if at all possible.

Which particular model of the infinity do you have.

 

[wagarfamilyfarm]

Which particular model of the infinity do you have.

We have an Infinity 96 Model # 58MVB120-20

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Which particular model of the infinity do you have.

We have an Infinity 96 Model # 58MVB120-20

120,000 BTU 96+ % efficient hot air system.

Do you have a number of gallons of LP you burned the last year?

I'm looking for something to hang a sizing on.

 

[wagarfamilyfarm]

Do you have a number of gallons of LP you burned the last year?

I'm looking for something to hang a sizing on.

I just called our propane company and for the last 12 months (Oct 09 - Oct 10) they have delivered 1,290.4 gallons to us. As a clarification we the items that run this propane are: Cooking Stove/oven, Water Heater and Furnace.

 

[imacman]

Hi Wagerfamilyfarm, welcome to the forum.

I was curious what your per gallon propane price is there. 100 avg. gallons/month doesn't seem too bad, but that's just me.

Have you used a fuel cost calculator to see if pellets are really cheaper than your 96% efficiency propane system?

Try these:

http://pelletheat.org/pellets/compare-fuel-costs/

http://energy.cas.psu.edu/EnergySelector.html


The reason I'm bringing this up is, how long will it take to break even after stove, pipe, installation, etc., are figured even if the pellets are cheaper. And also realize that this year pellets are relatively cheap, but that could change down the road.

 

[wagarfamilyfarm]

I was curious what your per gallon propane price is there. 100 avg. gallons/month doesn't seem too bad, but that's just me.

The running average during the winter months (which is when our tank is filled more frequently) has been is right at $2.10 / Gallon which would make our annual cost average out at $2,709.84

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Do you have a number of gallons of LP you burned the last year?

I'm looking for something to hang a sizing on.

I just called our propane company and for the last 12 months (Oct 09 - Oct 10) they have delivered 1,290.4 gallons to us. As a clarification we the items that run this propane are: Cooking Stove/oven, Water Heater and Furnace.

Well that complicates things a smidge.

Your usage of propane is roughly equal to 118 million btus of gross heat.

Which would require you to burn approximately almost 9 tons of wood pellets in an 80% pellet device.

I have no idea what the split would be in your case. If you can find the usage for say June and September it might be possible to separate out the stove/water heater and obtain a heating only figure.

 

[wagarfamilyfarm]

I have no idea what the split would be in your case. If you can find the usage for say June and September it might be possible to separate out the stove/water heater and obtain a heating only figure.

Not sure this will help or not, but here was the breakdown of LP deliveries to our home over the last 12 months

Oct 2010 - 225.3 Gallons
Apr 2010 - 115.1 Gallons
Feb 2010 - 275.1 Gallons
Jan 2010 - 250.0 Gallons
Dec 2009 - 125.0 Gallons
Nov 2009 - 300.0 Gallons

Last year was pretty mild winter all things considered.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Looks like close to 540 gallons is for stove/hot water leaving 750 gallons for heating the abode.

This works out to 68,604,000 BTUS

or 5.23 tons of wood pellets in an 80% efficient pellet device.

Your pellet device must be larger than or equal to 19200 btus/hour at its middle firing rate to even equal what your propane system is doing for you and based upon an even heating load (which is never the case).

If it was me I'd be looking at the very least a maximum firing rate of 45,000 btus/hour to provide some head room and provide a decent recovery rate if you play the thermostat setback game at night.

If you could find the sizing calculation sheets used to size your furnace you could get a lot closer to what is needed. It is not uncommon for heating systems to be over sized.

This rough cut is based upon being to able to heat the house somewhat in the same manner you have done so far and allows for a bit of leeway.

I am not a fan of backing into the figures this way.

A heat loss calculation using the conductivity of the components of your house, the degree day figures for your area, the record minimum temperature data, and a design point temperature plugged into a sizing calculator is the way to go. The output of this is a btu/hour/degree temperature difference figure and a design temperature heat loss figure in BTUs/hour tailored to your location and temperature history.

 

[vvvv]

established furnace heating delivers heat to the outer/colder walls whereas a point of use heater/stove wont & the result is condensation & possible mold near the previously heated exterior walls......ithinx

 

[wagarfamilyfarm]

Okay, so I am beginning to question whether or not it even makes sense then to make the investment of purchasing, installing and running a pellet/corn stove at all based upon what you guys are saying...

If you were in the same boat as I am (and you knew that you would most likely be looking to sell your home in the next 2-3 years) what would you do?

Thanks!

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

established furnace heating delivers heat to the outer/colder walls whereas a point of use heater/stove wont & the result is condensation & possible mold near the previously heated exterior walls......ithinx

Hey Pook,

Do you have any pictures of that happening?

I'm aware of problems occurring when there is a lot of humidity inside a house and the walls aren't properly vapor barriered and the roof isn't properly ventilated.

There are millions of hot air heated houses (that have very few registers and not all of them are located along outside walls) that don't have issues with condensation let alone mold.

 

[vvvv]

established furnace heating delivers heat to the outer/colder walls whereas a point of use heater/stove wont & the result is condensation & possible mold near the previously heated exterior walls......ithinx

Hey Pook,

Do you have any pictures of that happening?

I'm aware of problems occurring when there is a lot of humidity inside a house and the walls aren't properly vapor barriered and the roof isn't properly ventilated.

There are millions of hot air heated houses (that have very few registers and not all of them are located along outside walls) that don't have issues with condensation let alone mold.

its scientifically plausible,duh

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Okay, so I am beginning to question whether or not it even makes sense then to make the investment of purchasing, installing and running a pellet/corn stove at all based upon what you guys are saying...

If you were in the same boat as I am (and you knew that you would most likely be looking to sell your home in the next 2-3 years) what would you do?

Thanks!

Given what I know about the current state of real estate, the in the pipeline problems, and what the dummies in DC have done, I'd say lots of luck on that.

I've been through the cyclical loan problems a few times while involved with banks. Glad I haven't had a Mortgage since 1999. I'd be inclined to see if I could add some permanent pellets (aka insulation) to the situation.

One never knows what will happen with propane prices or pellet prices for that matter.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

established furnace heating delivers heat to the outer/colder walls whereas a point of use heater/stove wont & the result is condensation & possible mold near the previously heated exterior walls......ithinx

Hey Pook,

Do you have any pictures of that happening?

I'm aware of problems occurring when there is a lot of humidity inside a house and the walls aren't properly vapor barriered and the roof isn't properly ventilated.

There are millions of hot air heated houses (that have very few registers and not all of them are located along outside walls) that don't have issues with condensation let alone mold.

its scientifically plausible,duh

Yes but the conditions are so far out there that the likely hood is low.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

It is also important to note that the ability to use multiple fuels could be a plus when it comes time to sell.

You could also consider adding a means of powering your house when the electricity is out, propane powered generators are available and you already have the tanks and propane.

If you use the cost figure you gave us for your propane and $250/ ton for pellets you have better than a $4.00 per million btus or $272/year fuel savings it becomes even higher if propane goes up and or pellets go down.

We've never owned a place for a short period of time before selling, never quite got into the mode of changing addresses every 7 or so years, so we tend to look long term. This is likely the last place we will own and we've got tons of work to do. Most of which is outside landscaping etc...

 

[imacman]

Okay, so I am beginning to question whether or not it even makes sense then to make the investment of purchasing, installing and running a pellet/corn stove at all based upon what you guys are saying...

If you were in the same boat as I am (and you knew that you would most likely be looking to sell your home in the next 2-3 years) what would you do?

Thanks!

Given that short of a time frame, I'd say no, unless you think it will add to the resale value.......in today's market, I'd kinda doubt that.....but that's just IMO.

Even if it did save you $$ in propane, would the break-even point come before you sold?

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Okay, so I am beginning to question whether or not it even makes sense then to make the investment of purchasing, installing and running a pellet/corn stove at all based upon what you guys are saying...

If you were in the same boat as I am (and you knew that you would most likely be looking to sell your home in the next 2-3 years) what would you do?

Thanks!

Given that short of a time frame, I'd say no, unless you think it will add to the resale value.......in today's market, I'd kinda doubt that.....but that's just IMO.

Even if it did save you $$ in propane, would the break-even point come before you sold?

imacman,

I wasn't even considering it in terms of an increase in resale value per se. I was just thinking about it being an additional attraction. The way the real estate market is now you need to deliver the most for the least. I also don't see that changing anytime soon, there are too many foreclosures and other homes for sale. The inventory is huge and isn't dropping. The real kicker is there are even more homes in the foreclosure pipeline.

Still with the tax credit, the several hundred dollars per year in heating cost reduction, and the bonus points at time of sale, the OP might come out ahead. Like doing the sizing we have know way to know the figures for certain.

 

[FyreBug]

If it's biofuel you're looking for have you considered a Pellet Furnace?

PSG makes a great one called the Alterna. You set your BTU level (feed rate) for your house, hook it up to a thermostat like a regular furnace and you're good to go. It even has a 6 speed blower to keep the plenum temperature steady. It's built like a tank and very easy to get to any components. Holds 240 lbs of pellets and you can put an electric element as an optional backup as well as a water loop kit to pre-heat your hot water tank.

Here's the link for more info http://www.psg-distribution.com/product.aspx?CategoId=28&Id=542&Page=description

Let me know if you have any questions

 

[Countryboymo]

I think with the tax rebate and the fluctuating LP prices it would be a good thing. The longer you live there the better of course. If you vent out a wall and the new owner doesn't want the stove it isn't a huge deal to fill the hole in and take the stove with you. I would consider a really nice Quadrafire Mt Vernon AE or Harman that has some extra finish options of some sort. It is basically a toss up when you might be moving soon. I would first search for a good location and go from there. I would also check your humidity when the furnace has been running for quite some time. A humidifier is one item that will make a lower temp more comfortable which will save a good amount of money.

 

[Corny]

We're in our 6th heating season with a 50,000 BTU multifuel stove in a large old farmhouse with no regrets. We burn mostly corn or pellets, whichever is cheapest and available. Our backup oil furnace almost never comes on. Over a 10 y period, it previously burned an average of 4100 liters per year, maxing at 5100 liters. Now, it is in the order of 500 liters anually. The heat circulates naturally by convection due to its placement and the design of the home, which was built before the days of forced air heating. If needed, we could simply activate the circulation fan of the furnace, but that hasn't been necessary. Living in a rural area, corn has been almost consistently our most economical choice, but I value the opportunity to choose. Fuel costs have ranged from 0.3 to 0.5 relative to oil; and we no longer chintz at the thermostat. Based on our experience, I'd recommend a high end multifuel stove capable of burning corn.

 

[markinmd]

We also heat with LP, heating 3200 sq ft and also used for hot water, fireplace and cooking. When I finished the basement we decided on a pellet stove instead of running additional duct work. Mainly needed heat in the basement and was looking for something to supplement the LP. We have a 1000 gallon LP tank, and was filling it twice a year before installing the stove. In the six years we've had the stove we've cut our LP usage by about 500 gallons/yr. I did install a return in the ceiling near the stove, and we also keep the basement door open which helps to circulate the heat. While the basement stays at 78 degrees the rest of the house is set at 68. On cold winter days it's great to hit the basement TV room to hang out in comfort. What I really like is that it cuts down on my LP cost during the most expensive time of the year. Usually fill the tank by Sept and can make it to March before refilling, by which time the cost/gallon has usually dropped. Prior to the stove we would have to purchase LP during the winter which can be really expensive due to peak demand. Miscalculated last year and ended up having to get four hundred gallons in February at $2.69/gallon, compared to $1.89/gallon during off peak and won't make that mistake again. If I can reduce my LP usage and make it thru the most expensive time of the the year without having to pay peak prices it works for me. Good luck with the decision.