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Trying to buy a new car...

Post in 'DIY and General non-hearth advice' started by kd460, Dec 9, 2008.

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  1. kd460

    kd460 Feeling the Heat

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2006
    Messages:
    394
    In the market to buy a new car. Getting frustrated fast. Guess I just need to vent and maybe I need to hear opinions from others.

    These guys are good. They are your best friend and really try to hide the numbers. I am at say stage one. Got an initial price from two separate dealers, within $1000 of each other. Got a price on trade in, and it is right at payoff for my old car. I never did tell them what pay off is. But extremely low compared to Kelly and Edmunds.

    The reason I feel I need a new car is my current vehicle has a design flaw that will require about $3000 to fix a potential problem that could cause the engine to become toast. It is a gamble whether the problem will occur, but, I hear more and more of these vehicles having this problem occur at about the mileage I am at. So, I want to get rid of it. Pisses me off because I have taken excellent care of this car and had no plans to get rid of it.

    Anyways, I hate the games the dealers play. I am not good at the games the dealers play. I don't want to play games. But, I guess it's all part of the game. They (dealers) are there to make money, I am there to get the best deal. I guess I just need to be a little more patient.

    I am researching pricing and see what people are paying, and of course I am about $2000 away from those numbers (higher). Things like MSRP, Invoice, below invoice, dealer hold backs, whatever. Title, taxes, destination charges, administration fees, blah, blah, blah. It is mind numbing.

    You can negotiate a deal, then they add all the charges on top of the title and taxes, man, it takes it toll.

    Any tips on negotiating? Should I start talking out the door pricing? Should I talk "monthly payments", or what? Do I need to keep telling myself "be patient". Are the dealers really as hungry to make a deal as I thought (based on what I have been reading with the economy)? When dealing with them, you would never know they were hurting.

    I think I just need to tell the dealer a set monthly payment for x amount of months and be done with it. If it happens, it happens, If not, then move on. Problem is, I mean what I say, if I give a number I mean that number! I am not the type to dicker or barter or play the game. I just wish their was an easier way.

    OK, I feel a little better, thanks for reading, Oh and don't buy a used car from me right now! ;) KD

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  2. Mmaul

    Mmaul Minister of Fire

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    Oct 10, 2007
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    Loc:
    Muncie, IN
    I did the payment "this is what I want as a payment" I will never do that again I feel at the time it was a good deal, now I feel I got hosed. Negotiate price this will be better in the long run. I negotiated a price before this last car and it went much better If they ask, about what your payment would be tell them your looking at prices and the payment will come latter. The one time I have asked about payment and it ended up being higher then what they originally said if it comes to that stick with what you want if they want to sell the car they will make it happen.
  3. mayhem

    mayhem Minister of Fire

    Joined:
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    Loc:
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    Negotiate the price of the car, not the payments. Down payment iswhatever you want it to be. Don't let the guy tell you price is after X down payment. The price is the price. Negotiate the value of your tradein as a separate transaction.

    Taxes, title, etc. will be tacked onto the pricetag no matter what.

    I like to go into the deal knowing what the dealer has paid for the car, what its worth and what my trade is worth before I even walk in the door. I don't mind meeting the dealer halfway in between MSRP and invoice...they've got to eat too. Don't let yourself get eaten alive, but dont kill yourself over $100 off either.
  4. imiller1974

    imiller1974 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2008
    Messages:
    35
    Loc:
    lancaster, sc
    You've done the right thing about research online, don't just get on a consumer reports style website either. Do a google search for a forum for the car you're interested in. Look for a website similar to this one.
    Don't waste your time with the sales person, they don't make the decisions, you ever notice they always have to go ask someone? Just walk right in and ask for a sales manager. Always talk about the final, out the door price, never talk payments. I can't stress this enough.... LIE to them!!! They will lie to you, just lie right back. If Dealer A tells you they'll do $20,000 for the car, go to Dealer B and tell them Dealer A will do $18,000. You can do the same crap for trade-in value, too. When they want the keys to your possible trade-in, tell them no, show them where the car is, but don't give up the keys, they won't want to give them back, it's a ploy to keep you in the dealership longer. During the negotiation get up and walk out on them. They'll come after you, kissing your ass. Sit back down, listen to them telling you more lies, then get up walk out again... Try to walk out at least 3 times!!!
    When you walk into the dealership, don't smile, hold your head up, be serious, don't look around at the cars on the floor, look them in the eye. When they speak, wrinkle your forehead a little, raise an eyebrow like you're seeing through the bull hockey. This is gonna sound really bad but; Think of yourself as Better Than they Are!!! Act like you're crap don't stink. I promise you, they are thinking the same thing about themselves... Good luck.
  5. Frxdy

    Frxdy New Member

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    Loc:
    Orrington, Maine
    You don't believe for a second that "invoice" is actually what the dealer pays do you? That's such a joke.

    How to buy a car and waste no time. Walk in, put a check on the counter. Tell the salesman you're going to lunch and when you get back either youll pick up the check, or he'll have the paperowrk done and the check is full payment.

    How to buy a car and waste little time: Walk in, tell the dealer that you have a deposit at another dealer, but your willing to ask for it back if he can save you $1,000. When he gives you a price, tell him it's not even close, but OK, while you were figuring, I decided that if you can come within $500 it's be worth it. "I don't mind paying $500 to buy from a local dealer, but if you can save me $500, you have a sale". I actually (accidently) did that. The second dealer dropped $800 in less than 5 min. I went back to the dealer where I had the deposit, felt not too bad for him, and he dropped $500 so I wouldn't take my deposit back. Don't worry about feelings!! They lie every day of the week and feel great. I didn't have to lie!
  6. My_3_Girls

    My_3_Girls Member

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    147
    Loc:
    Massachusetts
    A few pointers:

    - don't want the car you want
    - don't be able to afford the car you can afford
    - everything imiller said, and then some

    But really.... I have found that getting 3 or 4 quotes on a product (yes, a car), weighing the pros and cons, and giving each dealer ONE last look should get everyone on the same page. In these times, everyone wants to be your vendor. Make them earn your business.
  7. moondoggy

    moondoggy New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2007
    Messages:
    518
    Loc:
    Long Island NY
    i have shopped and helped purchase 7 new cars in the 2 yrs i have got prices way under "invoice" (yea thats a good word)..... and have spent a lifetime as a salesperson. (not cars)
    remember,
    YOU are in control.
    let them make money on other people NOT you.
    They make money and get credit for moving a car, let them sell it to you at cost, they NEED to move cars BADLY.
    let them make the profit on the next guy.
    buy an 2008.
    you are at the best time of the year to buy- the end of the year.
    shop around, there are many dealers that NEED you.
    your attitude should be-
    Hi, I need a car w/in 2 weeks, I need your best cost, I'm not coming back to debate it, if you see me again its cause your price won. ....I 'm looking at the Tucson, SPortage, Caliper and anything in that range, I'm not picky. (but rather name cars in the same class as what your looking.) even if you know you really want a Hyundai Tuscon dont let them know.
    Lie, they do it, you can too.
    "phsss wow thats high, I can get the ____(competitor model) for $2000. less."
    they might say "well ___ dosnt have X"
    your response is, that dosnet matter to me, my money and saftey matters to me and they are both equally safe cars according to all saftey tests"
    BE Confident- BE in control, They NEED you to survive. you dont need them, dealers are on every other corner.

    PS. screw the trade in if you can, it may actually hurt you, they dont need it or want it or want the hassle of transfering it. they want to MOVE a vehicle, not take an old one back... esp not these days. you will also do better selling it on the side.

    sorry but cant stress it enough- Be in control, talk strong and maintain the upper hand.its your money.... and they are ALL struggling to survive.

    I got a cost of 22k for my car from the dealer that had it on the lot. I bought THAT actual vehicle from another dealer for 3,500.00 less, 25 miles down the road. they picked it up from the first dealer the next day, it was mine by 3 pm the following day.

    When they give you a cost and things are agreed, make sure your looking at them and say, thats done out the door complete right? no surprises or I'm walking... and dont be afraid to walk out, they will call you back, if they dont, move on.

    good luck.
  8. Dill

    Dill Feeling the Heat

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2008
    Messages:
    329
    Loc:
    Northwood NH
    I'm working on buying a new truck right now. Let me tell you the dealers want to move trucks.
    Dodge has this handy "make an offer" button now on the dealer websites. So I spend a morning trolling around looking for the right truck. And sent them an offer. 3k less than what they had it in the paper for that weekend. So the emails started. First for more than the advertised price. So I told them I saw the ad, and then stopped answering emails. It took 2 weeks but they met my price. I went to the credit union and got the loan before I went shopping also, it works with trucks and houses. I'm not able to get to the this dealer for probably another 2 weeks, so they are driving it down friday so we can test it for the weekend.
    Not all dealers where this helpful, but some are coming around to internet buying. Just know what you want and what you'll pay.
  9. zzr7ky

    zzr7ky Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2006
    Messages:
    1,052
    Hi -

    If you're shopping GM, drop me a line. I can offer you the GM Employee Discount 'til Jan. 5 at least. Should save a couple $k extra. I don't get anything out of it but a job.

    All the best,

    Mike P (Live from GM)
  10. My_3_Girls

    My_3_Girls Member

    Joined:
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    Loc:
    Massachusetts
    I thought "you pay what we pay" until the end of the year? Is this just a marketing idea?
  11. kd460

    kd460 Feeling the Heat

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2006
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    394
    OK, thanks for all the replies, they have been a big help. Also thanks for the offer on the GM products, but got my eye on a Honda Accord EX (it will be the wife's car).

    Dealer number one: We went and did a follow up visit to test drive the car. He had the model and color and everything we wanted. WE test drove it, remained calm and cool, did not get excited over it.

    He started talking payment numbers that seemed really high. Finally I asked for a price as we were leaving-it was after they closed, and he finally wrote down a number that was $1000 higher than dealer number two, but still about $2000 higher than "invoice". This is the same dealer that we talked to initially a week before, expressed some interest, looked at a couple cars, told him what we liked but did not test drive because of weather. Funny how a week later he just happened to have what we wanted. However, during that week long gap, we never got a follow up call, and it has been 3 days since our test drive, and we have never got a follow up call from him again. I would think he would call if he really wanted to sell me a car. I do not want to call him, as I do not want to seem to eager.

    Dealer number two was 1000 less than dealer number one. Once again, due to weather, I did not test drive the car. They had a car with everyhting we wanted except interior color which is not a problem. I did receive a follow up call on my voice mail, and I was all set to call her back and tell her we were about $2000 off, but, when I called, I decided to keep it simple. Got her voice mail and I left a message "that I am sorry, those numbers are not gonna work, thank you for your time and your assistance". That was two days ago and no follow up from her as well.

    Both are low balling my trade. I prefer trade, as no one is buying anything here in Michigan. I have seen similiar to mine used cars on lots for 6 months, so I don't think it is a fast mover. Besides, I'm not sure how I would feel about selling a car with a known potential problem to a individual. Not sure if this is right or not, but I have no problem selling this car to a dealer though.

    So, thats where I am at. Not close to invoice price, excellent credit rating, a trade in car that according to KBB and Edmunds has a trade in value of 13,500, (and that is if the car is in fair condition, mine is in good condition) and I am getting trade in prices of 8000 to 9000.

    Yes, I would love to get a new car within two weeks, but, I am trying to give the impression to the dealers that I am not anxious or emotional about the car. I may check out another dealer on Saturday. We will see. Just hate the slow process and am a little surprised at how the dealers don't seem too eager. KD
  12. NNYorker

    NNYorker Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2008
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    Loc:
    Upstate N.Y.
    kd460

    Go to www.honda.com and use their find a dealer ---punch in your zip code--dealers in your area will come up. I used my local zip and zips out to 200 miles from my home. The dealers all have a request a quote--fill in all your info and watch the e-mails pour in. I purchased a 2007 Honda Ridgeline this way.

    You can easily eliminate the dealers who come back with---MSRP pricing,sorry-we can't give you a price over the internet,sorry-you have to visit our dealership for us to give you a price, and the list of BS excuses goes on. I e-mailed about 30 dealerships. You'll get responses within hours and some dealers will never respond. YOU can do as many as you like. YOU are in control--USE this easily accessible tool THEY provide you--it saves a lot of running around.

    I tried buying locally but the dealer looked at me like I had three heads when I lowballed them on my purchase price. It was a slow Feb. day and all the predators came out of the woodwork when I told the sales manager my already firm purchase price from another dealer 1hr. 45 min. away. Their responses were: There's no way they can sell you that vehicle for that price, It must be a used vehicle..... I gave them a price $500 less than the price I already had from the other dealer-- just using their techniques against them.

    So in the end I drove 1hr. 45 min. to save $2000 . I never visited the dealer before I purchased the vehicle. Drove to the dealer with check in hand-45 min. later drove away with my new Ridgeline. Try this -I bet you'll get a lot of e-mails and phone calls. Good luck!!
  13. Dill

    Dill Feeling the Heat

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2008
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    Loc:
    Northwood NH
    It seems like the trade in market is dead right now. I'll be lucky if I get 1500 for my dakota.
    Do the email offer thing. And it works just like the previous poster. I did about 10 dealerships and was down to 1 within 2 days.
    Too many don't understand how the internet changes the car buying rules for informed customers.
  14. imiller1974

    imiller1974 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2008
    Messages:
    35
    Loc:
    lancaster, sc
    Take your current car to Carmax and see what they will give you for it. Use that figure to haggle with the dealers. If the dealers won't give you what Carmax will, then sell it to Carmax, and use the CASH to haggle, you may get a better deal with cash to put down, instead of a trade in...


    Another thing about Carmax is they actually sell new cars... most people don't know that. They don't sell Hondas, but they do sell Toyotas. The new car Toyota Carmax dealers are in Kenosha, WI and in Washington, D.C. I'm not sure how far that is for you. I looked on their website, they've got a few Camry's for about $19000. Check it out, and good luck.


    Isaac
  15. kd460

    kd460 Feeling the Heat

    Joined:
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    OK, sorry in a hurry, dealer number two called me back again today, got some things happening but, gotta go to my kids school function, will fill you in later this eve, but basically dealer number two is a "car salesperson in training" she seems reasonable, but, I am keeping my gaurd up.

    I let her know that I am aware of invoice pricing, I am shopping at other dealers, I know about dealer holdbacks, have researched my trade in values, etc. She does at least seem sincere. She went so far as to say "I am learning, and even if I can't make a deal I would like to know where the failure occurred so it won't happen again" we actually had a pleasant conversation. She seems to at least be interested in bargaining, so we are getting somewhere.

    I know, since she is new, she keeps getting input from her fellow dealers, and this is where some of the BS starts occurring. I will still keep my gaurd up.

    Dealer number one is not playing the game, has not followed up, and does not seem interested in making a deal unless it puts lots of money in his pocket.

    I do have some hard numbers that I will throw at her on saturday. Will add more later this eve, gotta go. Thanks again for all your information so far. Will keep you posted. KD
  16. firefighterjake

    firefighterjake Minister of Fire

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    Just so you know . . . seems like just about every other car salesmen that I meet are new or in training . . . being the jaded sort of person that I am I often wonder if this is just a ploy to get you to feel some empathy for them.
  17. kd460

    kd460 Feeling the Heat

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    I wondered the same thing...
  18. smokinj

    smokinj Minister of Fire

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    Best advice i can give you is always walk after seeing numbers tell them to give you a call if they can do better at a later date?(watch what happens next)lol then repeat this until you get what you think is fair!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  19. kd460

    kd460 Feeling the Heat

    Joined:
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    Just an update:

    Using the information you folks have provided here, and after checking all the numbers regarding trade in and new car prices, national averages, invoice, etc, we went to dealer number three.

    Basically we walked in, met with a salesman, sat down, confirmed that they had the vehicle we wanted, told them we are prepared to drive a car away today. We told him that we have been to two other dealers, we have test driven the car and we are actually going to meet with dealer blah blah in an hour. We have X amount for a down payment, we want X amount for our trade, and we will pay X amount for the new car. I made sure that they understood that this was an "out the door price".

    Of course they wanted to raise that price, and I told them I would not go for their counter offer. I told the salesman to double check with "whoever" one more time and if it is still a "no" I will be leaving. I told them "this is the price I will pay, not something in between, not a little more, this was it and this was my final number and final offer".

    I actually got on the phone and called the "other dealer" to tell them I was running late, but will be there soon. I did this while my wife was talking to the salesman as he was trying to explain why he could not go any lower. I casually made sure that he seen and heard me doing this.

    He went back to check with whoever he checks with (probably sales manager) and returned with paperwork and a set of keys :)

    The "other dealer" that I called on the phone was my buddy and he is probably still wondering what the hell that phone call was all about? ;)

    My wife still can not believe the price we got. Our payment is lower than what it currently was for our old car, and the price of the vehicle is lower than what we paid for a new vehicle in 2005. It is a nicer car, and I got them to throw in a set of mud flaps and also a limited LIFETIME powertain warranty. The factory powertrain warranty is 60,000 miles. The lifetime powertrain warranty will be a plus as we intend to give this car to my daughter when she turns 16 (she just turned 10) so as long as we keep it our name the warranty remains in effect.

    I'm aware the warranty could be some BS worthless document by then, but, we will see. I still got a deal that was better than I ever expected and the warranty was just another plus. Thanks again to everyone for your help and information. It saved me big $$. You folks are great. KD
  20. struggle

    struggle Minister of Fire

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    Just an educated guess maybe is your current vehicle a Dodge?Chrysler 2.7 liter engine.
  21. kd460

    kd460 Feeling the Heat

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    Nope, but I am aware of that problem as well. The problem car I owned was a 2005 VW Passat diesel. Turns out a design flaw in the oil pump drive mechanism is starting to show it's ugly head. More and more failures every day. Too bad, as I liked the car, I liked getting 38-40 mpg's. I hated the dealer network but I did all my own service on the vehicle ayways. It was due for a new timing belt change at about 300-400 (doing the work myself about 1300-1500 bucks at the stealer), and then the whole oil pump issue at about $3000. Enough was enough. Did not want to play russian roulette, and felt the money could be better spent on a new car.

    We are timing it so my daughter will get this new car when she is 16, so this works out even better. Oh and the new car does not use a timing belt:) Will be something different owning a gasoline vehicle, as all of my vehicles for the past 6 years have been diesels. Got rid of the "fine German engineering" and bought a car made in Marysville Ohio:

    http://www.zcars.com.au/images/2009-honda-accord-euro-sports-package1.jpg

    VW can kiss my gas!!! KD
  22. fishinpa

    fishinpa Member

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    I know this was like a million years ago (last June) but I walked onto a Subaru lot and picked out a car that I liked. (Legacy Ltd.) The sticker was like 25.2k. I told them some of the things mentioned above.IE: I'm not going in the building until YOU go in, talk to your manager and come back here & tell me I can walk off this lot, with this car for 21k. I'm not here to BS you or waste my time, I know about 'dealer holdback' and I don't really NEED a car right now, but if you want to move a 'unit', let me know... I'll be right here!

    He came back and said, "we'll deal" come on inside. 30 minutes later we signed a deal for 21.5. I really didn't NEED the car, and actually never even test drove it before I signed. I'm really glad I bought it because I love this car now!

    I know one guy who has over 200k on his Suby and he knows some one with over 300k on his. My Buddie with the 200k is on his first exhaust, engine, transmission, etc.

    RECENTLY: A very good friend took option #2. He went to 3 or 4 dealers and said "I want vehicle x" and I going to 3 or 4 dealers, write down your best price, including taking his trade and if you have THE BEST price I'll come back. He wound up getting a really good deal that way.

    Good luck whatever you do. I will highly recommend looking a a Subaru along with the Honda. I think you'll be really surprised at the value they offer.
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