trying to decide on stove & my heating needs

[OhioBurner©]

First post here, although I have used this site for research on our last purchase, a Jotul insert. However trying to figure out what to do about our main stove is still complex enough I was hoping to get some more comments by posting.

First off I am trying to explain our heating needs. Here is a rough sketch of our house (the 1st floor anyhow):

http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac235/kc2ebm/heating/IMG_1558.jpg

Its a two story house. The original part (right hand side) was built in 1901. Above it is a finished attic. On the left was an addition built in 1990. The great room is open two stories tall to the roof. Over the kitchen is the MBR and bathroom. There is a doorway connecting the two sides on both the first and second floors in the same spot.

The dimensions are based off the county auditor site I have not measured anything.
Also listed:
1st Floor finished area 1610'
2nd floor finished area 792'
Total 2402'.
This might not be 100% as I can see some minor differences just in the floor plan, plus I guess you might still need to count the huge area thats open above the great room though its not in the sqft.

When we moved in 2 years ago there was a large but old wood stove. I don't believe its very efficient, and needs replaced. I'll try to get a pic later. Someone told us it was a common stove of the 70's when lots of little businesses made em. It looks like home made almost, everything is square and no detail work on it at all. It does ok, but consumes a lot of wood and needs refilled every 4 hours. On the colder days of winter (around here single digits usually, or teens) the new side of the house probably is in the upper 50's despite using various fans to circulate the air.

Just recently we added a stove insert in the fireplace on the new side of the house since that side is what struggles with temps. Its a Jøtul C 550 Rockland and we havent used it yet but hope that will help. After the Jøtul install and new pipe we still have a little of the tax credit left and are debating replacing the stove too, with something that will cost us less wood and not have to get up in the middle of the night to reload.

See here is what I've narrowed things down to...
Although our house is somewhat large, it isnt very open, and we do have an untested insert on one side to reduce the heating needs. So we could go with something smaller. Alternatively I would kind of like the stove to still be capable of heating the whole house, especially since I dont know how well the insert will do.

I would really like a top or right side loading stove. Grew up until I was 18 with a VC Vigilant, my folks just replaced it recently with a Quadrafire Isle Royale. Top loading seems the easiest option and IMO easier to pack full for that all night burn. So the Quad is on the short list. I would like something that will burn through the night to avoid having to get up at 4am and walk downstairs and across the house. I would also like something that takes atleast 20" logs. Our insert I think is rated up to 24" so I would hate to short myself length because the other stove wont take it.

Since we got a Jøtul insert I am thinking about a Jøtul stove as well. Was looking at the Oslo or Firelight. Oslo loads on the wrong side for us, and not sure if the Firelight is just too big... 81k BTU are they serious? I was originally wanting a VC but based on opinions here I am going to pass. I want a quality stove that I dont have to worry about failing. A local dealer also had a Harmon Oakwood which we liked, especially the idea of the grille insert, but after reading here I think I have struck it from the list due to the afterburner or whatever you call it assembly that is prone to problems and expensive.

So I have kinda narrowed it down to:
Quad Isle Royale (costly, but top loading, maybe too big?)
Quad Cumberland Gap (not top loading, but the side load is on the right side which will work)
Jøtul Firelight (right side loading, but too big?)
Jøtul Oslo (left side wont work well, have to use front, ash problem)
Harman Oakwood (long burn, like grill, but potential problematic afterburner assembly)

I want to get a quality stove that will last for a long time without needing parts. I am willing to spend a little more to get it (was originally looking at $1500 stoves, like the Dutchwest) even if it means I might not be able to get it right away. Our current one is working for now, and will probably go into the pole barn when it gets replaced.
Suggestions?

 

[Todd]

Welcome to the forum. Two large stoves on your main floor may end up roasting you out. Maybe wait and see how your insert works out, you may want to use that as your primary and have a smaller stove in the other area to help out as needed? You may also want to look into the new Jotul top loader, it's suppose to be out soon.

 

[jeff_t]

I agree. See how your new insert works out. If it needs a little help, you may want to consider a cat stove, that can be burned a little slower and still get good burntimes.

 

[begreen]

The biggest problem will probably be getting the heat distributed from the big Rockland. A ceiling fan will help. So would a fan in the cooler area like the old part of the house, placed low, blowing into the area where the insert is located.

If you decide to put a stove in the old area, I wouldn't worry too much about how it loads. We loved our Resolute with the top loading, but love our Alderlea front loader too. Get a good stove that you like and don't worry too much about the loading zone. If I was putting a stove in the middle of the old section, I think I would want something that has a long burntime and about a 2 cu ft firebox. The Woodstock Keystone or PE Alderlea T5 seem like a good fit.

 

[branchburner]

I could be wrong, but I think the fact that the great room is two stories means a lot of your insert heat will remain in that room, even with a ceiling fan. I wouldn't worry about oversizing the other stove, because you obviously don't have to burn both units 24/7. When it's zero out, you will have the big guns if you need them.

How much of a tax credit do you have left? If it's insignificant, it makes sense to wait and see what the insert can do. But if you're set on buying, I would go big. The extra firebox size is not always at a huge premium. For example, a Woodstock Fireview ends up being only $1550 vs. a Keystone for $1450 (after credit). Nearly a 50% larger firebox for 7% more cash.

 

[OhioBurner©]

Thanks for all the comments! I didnt expect to get so many responding in the middle of summer!

I could be wrong, but I think the fact that the great room is two stories means a lot of your insert heat will remain in that room, even with a ceiling fan. I wouldn't worry about oversizing the other stove, because you obviously don't have to burn both units 24/7. When it's zero out, you will have the big guns if you need them.

Well the upper level hallway is open to the great room so the thought is the heat will go up and into the 2nd story, and I'll put in a register an the far end of the cieling between the kitchen and bedroom so hopefully the air will come back down an circulate. But we do have 2 large ceiling fans in the great room, however the installer that did the insert suggested we dont run them and do the register over the kitchen and maybe even one with a fan.

Thats a good point about not having to burn both 24/7, and the whole house is pretty big.

How much of a tax credit do you have left? If it's insignificant, it makes sense to wait and see what the insert can do. But if you're set on buying, I would go big. The extra firebox size is not always at a huge premium. For example, a Woodstock Fireview ends up being only $1550 vs. a Keystone for $1450 (after credit). Nearly a 50% larger firebox for 7% more cash.

Not much left... between the Jotul Rockland and 23' of new stainless and installation of both ran $4000 so I got about 30% off of $500 more I guess.

Yeah, the Rockland isnt even broken in yet so maybe I'll just see how it works. I got a preconception that it being an insert isnt going to perform like a freestanding. I dont know. It was the biggest one we could fit in the space though so I hope it will still throw out some heat. But I dont think it will burn through the night. Also during the day the heating concern is the old side of the house since my wife works from home. So I think the primary heater will be the free standing and the insert will be more for weekends and when were all home.

The biggest problem will probably be getting the heat distributed from the big Rockland. A ceiling fan will help. So would a fan in the cooler area like the old part of the house, placed low, blowing into the area where the insert is located.

If you decide to put a stove in the old area, I wouldn't worry too much about how it loads. We loved our Resolute with the top loading, but love our Alderlea front loader too. Get a good stove that you like and don't worry too much about the loading zone. If I was putting a stove in the middle of the old section, I think I would want something that has a long burntime and about a 2 cu ft firebox. The Woodstock Keystone or PE Alderlea T5 seem like a good fit.

Yeah since we dont have AC every room in the house has ceiling fans. I'm not 100% set on certain loading profile... the old stove is front loading and the insert of course is front... but growing up with a VC Vigilant top loader for almost 30 years (well 18 years that I actually lived at home) got me kinda spoiled. I have never heard of either those two brands, after looking up the PE Alderlea T5 it does look pretty nice but the 18" max log length will be a pain in the but compared to the 24" of the Jotul Rockland insert. Not sure if the sell PE around here I'll have to look into it.

I agree. See how your new insert works out. If it needs a little help, you may want to consider a cat stove, that can be burned a little slower and still get good burntimes.

I do like the longer advertised burns of the cat stoves but hear they are more difficult to use. Since my wife is going to be responsible for the stove 75% of the time I dont think thats a good idea. I also dont want to have to be replacing expensive parts every few years. Thats why I want to hold out for a good unit, one that I wont have to worry about for a long time.

Unless I see a great deal I can't pass up I might just wait to see how the insert works in conjunction with our old stove. I just worry about getting enough wood to feed the old unit & getting up in the middle of the night every day.

 

[branchburner]

Well the upper level hallway is open to the great room so the thought is the heat will go up and into the 2nd story, and I'll put in a register an the far end of the cieling between the kitchen and bedroom so hopefully the air will come back down and circulate.

Also during the day the heating concern is the old side of the house since my wife works from home. So I think the primary heater will be the free standing and the insert will be more for weekends and when were all home.

I do like the longer advertised burns of the cat stoves but hear they are more difficult to use. Since my wife is going to be responsible for the stove 75% of the time I dont think thats a good idea. I also dont want to have to be replacing expensive parts every few years. Thats why I want to hold out for a good unit, one that I wont have to worry about for a long time.

Unless I see a great deal I can't pass up I might just wait to see how the insert works in conjunction with our old stove. I just worry about getting enough wood to feed the old unit & getting up in the middle of the night every day.

Given the great room is open at the top, I expect the insert will do a good job heating the upstairs, maybe too good. So I see your concern with the old side of the house. To wait to see may be the best bet.

Unless you dislike the appearance of it, I wouldn't rule out the Fireview. The same worries you have led me away from cat stoves, but after reading so many Fireview threads I think my downdraft stove may be costlier and more difficult to run than a cat. I really like my Harman, but it does require a little patience.

When sizing the stove, consider the temps your wife likes. Can she work more comfortably at 80F or at 60F in the winter? I like 80F in my drafty little house when it's freezing out. If I didn't, I'd have the wrong stove.

 

[begreen]

There is a very short list of 24" top loading stoves - (2). I would cut all my wood at 18" for both stoves. Put the occasional oversized pieces in the Jotul. The second stove does not need to be so big, that's why I suggested the T5. It will heat the whole house in milder weather when it's above freezing. This is a very strong, but simple stove. It is super easy to operate and low maintenance. My wife runs our T6 several days a week when I am away at work. That said, the Woodstock cat stoves are not much harder to operate. If you get a top loading stove it will have the equal difficulty of having to open the bypass damper when cold starting, then closing it once the stove is up to temperature. Same for reloading. If you want a super easy cat stove for her get the Blaze King Princess stove. It's not as pretty, but you should be able to fill it twice a day and it has thermostatic operation like the old Vigilant.

As for the register/duct/fan, it may be overkill. I'd hold off and try the stoves out for a season. My routine would be to use the freestanding stove for the primary heater. I would use the Rockland for ambiance and heating when the weather gets in the twenties and below.

 

[summit]

Do the firelight if you like it: Just don't load it so much if you don't want as much heat... but it's better to have the extra capacity and not need it, then to need it and not have it.
In defense of the Oakwood: They are a very solid stove. The afterburner won't be an issue if you just pop the brick off and vaccum it once or twice over the course of the season. Not saying you'll never replace it, but of top loading stoves with that downdraft assy, Harman probably makes the most rugged one out there.

 

[branchburner]

In defense of the Oakwood: They are a very solid stove. The afterburner won't be an issue if you just pop the brick off and vaccum it once or twice over the course of the season.

Absolutely a solid stove, really a great stove, and maybe the AB is less of a PITA than I make it out to be. But it does become more fragile with time and you need to take great care w/ the vac. I've only had personal contact w/ four Oakwood owners. Two of them damaged the AB w/ a vacuum or something, and the other two of them had to replace the AB within 5 yrs @$200+ as it clogged/degraded.

I'm not saying it should be a deal-breaker (especially if you love that grill!), but it's good to know going in that maintenance, expense, and ease of operation offer no real advantage in choosing a downdraft over a cat stove.

About that grill... it's really sweet!

 

[fahmahbob]

In defense of the Oakwood: They are a very solid stove. The afterburner won't be an issue if you just pop the brick off and vaccum it once or twice over the course of the season.

Absolutely a solid stove, really a great stove, and maybe the AB is less of a PITA than I make it out to be. But it does become more fragile with time and you need to take great care w/ the vac. I've only had personal contact w/ four Oakwood owners. Two of them damaged the AB w/ a vacuum or something, and the other two of them had to replace the AB within 5 yrs @$200+ as it clogged/degraded.

I'm not saying it should be a deal-breaker (especially if you love that grill!), but it's good to know going in that maintenance, expense, and ease of operation offer no real advantage in choosing a downdraft over a cat stove.

About that grill... it's really sweet!

I was thrilled with my Oakwood the first 4 years I had it. Then I had to change the AB (3 years ago). Well, it seems they changed what they're made of. I've had to replace it twice since then, and I probably need to change it again this year - at $350 a pop! They just keep deteriorating on me, and I have not changed what or how I burn. I'm very disappointed in this stove now, and I've since put in a Jotul 450 insert on the first floor (the Oakwood is in the basement). The Jotul is now my main heat, but I really liked having the basement toasty, as it heated my first floor hardwoods nicely.
The new AB is clearly made of a different material, and Harman says they've had no other complaints. I find that hard to believe. YMMV.

/rant

 

[OhioBurner©]

There is a very short list of 24" top loading stoves - (2). I would cut all my wood at 18" for both stoves. Put the occasional oversized pieces in the Jotul. The second stove does not need to be so big, that's why I suggested the T5.....

As for the register/duct/fan, it may be overkill. I'd hold off and try the stoves out for a season. My routine would be to use the freestanding stove for the primary heater. I would use the Rockland for ambiance and heating when the weather gets in the twenties and below.

I dont really need the full 24"... but 20+ is what I'm looking for. And not specifically a top loader, but a right hand side loader would work out well too. I typically cut my wood 20" using the length of the chansaw bar as a guide. For some wiggle room I'd say I'd like to have a 22" rated stove for my typical 20" pieces. I wouldnt be flat out opposed to 18" but I'd like to stay in the 20"+ region and already have atleast a winters worth of wood already cut.

I'll atleast be putting in a register in the finished attic over the old side of the house - thats my sons bedroom and even with the current stove cranking out max btu's and that room being near 90 the upstairs doesnt have any airflow path except on the opposite end. On any of the colder days and even bordeline mild days we run a large oil-electric radiator in the attic. Probably needs better insulation too. But I think a register on the end (all the way on the right side of my pic, between the office and bathroom) should help things out. I've never installed one myself but can't amagine it would be to big of deal to put one in and can always be closed off if needed. I dont think replacing our current stove will gain us much more heat (maybe, but our stove is pretty big), just use a whole lot less wood and easier to control.

On the new side of the house (left side) the thought of the register was to maybe warm the kitchen better. The installer said it would be pointless trying to use a fan to get heat into the kitchen, that it was going to go straight up, and that the register would atleast provide a return path through the kitchen.

Do the firelight if you like it: Just don't load it so much if you don't want as much heat... but it's better to have the extra capacity and not need it, then to need it and not have it.
In defense of the Oakwood: They are a very solid stove. The afterburner won't be an issue if you just pop the brick off and vaccum it once or twice over the course of the season. Not saying you'll never replace it, but of top loading stoves with that downdraft assy, Harman probably makes the most rugged one out there.

Thats what I'm leaning towards... The extra capacity of the firelight would be handy on a cold windy day or when the other stove isnt running for whatever reason. I was concerned with the bigger stoves ability to idle low but from what I read hear the Oslo idles just fine and I assume the same from the firelight but will do more research.

I think we'll just see how things work this winter and plan on getting a stove next year, depending partly on this winters outcome. If anything it will give me a lot of time to research, maybe see if Jotul comes out with the new toploader, and save up a little extra perhaps for the enamalled finish.

 

[Todd]

Don't forget about the tax credit, it expires Jan 1st and will save you 30% if you qualify.

 

[OhioBurner©]

Don't forget about the tax credit, it expires Jan 1st and will save you 30% if you qualify.

I spent $4k on the insert and install so I dont have much of that left. Basically anyhting else I buy would be worth another $150 off.