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Used Defiant vs New Englander 30?

Post in 'The Hearth Room - Wood Stoves and Fireplaces' started by rhetoric, Sep 21, 2007.

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  1. rhetoric

    rhetoric Member

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    There is a catalytic Vermont Castings Defiant used nearby for $950 or I can go to Dome Teapot and get a Englander NCL 30 for $700-$800 bucks. Hmmmmmm. I'm replacing a really old steel thing that is woefully inefficient and goes through wood like Rosie goes through TV shows. OR a Dutchwest Adirondack (w/o windows, sigh) for $400!

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  2. rhetoric

    rhetoric Member

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    Wait... I might have answered my own questions. The Defiant is an "Encore." I'm afraid that's probably too small for my 2K plus home. Unless you know something I don't know we can just let this thread die a painless death. Sorry.
  3. Harley

    Harley Minister of Fire

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    What's the age and condition of the VC stove? That could be a very good deal, or maybe not. What are your plans for the connection (ie, liner or existing chimney/pipe, etc. in good condition or will you have to start from scratch there?). The VC is going to need 8" - you "could" reduce it to a 6" pipe, I believe, but you wouldn't be able to run it with the doors open.
  4. rhetoric

    rhetoric Member

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    I don't know the age or condition yet -- I've only seen pictures. But it looks newer. I currently have a 8 inch stove that has a 6 inch single wall vent -- but the masonry chimney is at least 8x8 square. I am waiting to hear from the owner about the details.

    Thanks.
  5. kwburn

    kwburn New Member

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    yeah, the VC really is going to depend on age/condition to make that call. i know we're coming into peak season but they aren't exactly giving it away at $950 unless its really in nice condition. the age/condition of the catalytic combustor in it is also a question mark. you're looking at $140-200 if its shot assuming that the fragile refractory that holds it in place is still in good condition. they are very nice looking though and if its flat black you can repaint it to look like new easy enough. i recently bought a used one and am cleaning it up to burn this winter myself.
  6. stoveguy2esw

    stoveguy2esw Minister of Fire

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    the 30 nc should heat the house well, and being new it comes with a warranty, and you will also have me to beat up with questions whenever you like :)
  7. rhetoric

    rhetoric Member

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    And we were just IN Virginia. We could have picked up a factory second for cheap!
  8. stoveguy2esw

    stoveguy2esw Minister of Fire

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    bummer, wish you had stopped by could have had a cup of coffee and shot the bull for a while as well. so far ive only had 2 visitors from the hearth , BB , and corie, of course we ended up hiring corie so he is now a "perminant member" of the ESW family. he and corie 2 have both turned out to be welcome additions. had a good time with BB when he came down as well, unfortunately we had some work going on inside the factory that prevented him from getting a real good look, but im willing to drag him , or any others that wish to come by, through the plant and show how the stoves are born. i would ask though that if anyone is coming , let me know ahead of time , even just a day or two so i can plan for it. (no , not so i can hide stuff LMAO!) just allows me to make sure im not out to lunch when you arrived.
  9. BrotherBart

    BrotherBart Hearth.com LLC Mid-Atlantic Division Staff Member

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    Don't believe a word of it. Wouldn't sell me a stove from there and when I was there, no coffee. :coolsmirk:
  10. stoveguy2esw

    stoveguy2esw Minister of Fire

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    hey , but we had a good time, anyway , you up for another visit? i'll even buy lunch , just to make up for the coffee (and cause you're a fellow rotorhead and were when it mattered)
  11. GVA

    GVA Minister of Fire

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    maybe I'll stop by on my way to Charlotte.......... (I need a stopping point) You could set up a cot in the Burn lab I'll spend the overnight comparing the difference between the different stoves warmth :cheese:
  12. stoveguy2esw

    stoveguy2esw Minister of Fire

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    we'd love to have you , but be advised , bob would probably keep you up half the night while he tries to squeeze a little more out of a new design, he really works hard and should get more credit for what he does, heck , he did the 30 from the ground up and was less than a year from concept to production with an outstanding unit. just let me know if you are rolling through , i'll get you through the plant and introduce you to the ESW family.
  13. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    Well, I'm not exactly telling you to buy an Englander - because there are a LOT of good stoves on the market - but I can add this to the conversation...if I had to be on a desert island and had the choice of a used Cat Encore or a new non-cat (or cat, for that matter) stove......I would not choose the Encore. The Encore cat is a decent stove when used lightly to medium, but those that are used full-time often need extensive parts replacement or remodeling after 5-8 years. Of course, it is normal for used equipment to need work, but in this case even a relatively minor refurb (cat, ceramics, gaskets, labor) could easily run $5-600 or more.

    A nice looking stove, for sure - but as far as years of service for the bottom $$$ per year, that is not what it is designed to do, nor what it ends up doing. It is a fine piece of furniture which likes tender loving care and refinishing once in a while. If that suits your needs, then it may have your name on it - but if you want something a big uglier and with less parts, you may want to keep looking.
  14. rhetoric

    rhetoric Member

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    Good advice. I'm leaning englander for size and budget, but I must confess that the century i saw at lowes was better looking (nice door), but i haven't researched that brand yet. It kills me that the stove is last years stock (very dusty) but not on sale -- $769.
















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  15. stoveguy2esw

    stoveguy2esw Minister of Fire

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  16. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    Century is Vermont Castings - I think a re-label of the Dutchwest Unit.....
  17. rhetoric

    rhetoric Member

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    Humpfh. So why shouldn't i feel good about that?
  18. elkimmeg

    elkimmeg Guest

    WEB you are so full of Chit here.
    Why would one need a wood stove on a desert island nothing to burn and baking in a desert, So Full of chit here. Ok how many Hearth Com members have had problems with their Encores on a Desert island? Do you have trouble cutting the wood splitting and stacking it? in a desert how long does it take to dry Which chainsaw is best in the sand? We do know you only run it recreational because no need using it day time

    I'm heating 24/7 is that recreational? Can you advise me how I could burn more and not be recreational I'd real interested in that response

    Well my 1999 Encore must be falling apart by now according to Web. I use it bit more than recreation. I have not replaced the cat yet, nor one interior part, but have done some gasket cost me all of about $20 bucks at Ace hardware store. Back 15 years ago what weB is telling was true when he type on his Apple IIe. We have been down this road before and the ownership web is speaking of at VC are no longer in the game. If there was an issue with that used stove ,either it would have been discovered by now or IT is well past the 5 year break down, And must have one of the 49,500 good one manufactured that year. Actually take web advice buy used it is easy to see if it is damaged and by now probably replaced with the modified parts superior to the originals and you should not have a problem My other VC Intrepid 20 year old intrepid is on its second Cat and has not needed one interior replacement part. Stove combustor Cats are $140

    What web is also not telling you is in all probability the need for replacement is usually from abuse over firing. Which will equate to expensive repair in any stove Like Jotuls.

    I'm not advising you not to buy Englander stoves but correcting a zealous Web dissing the crap out of a manufacturer time and time again , For things that happened in the last decade under different ownership Yeah an Jap cars use to rust out, so don't buy any of them or you will have costly autobody repairs

    Web, if these stoves are so bad, then please explain why there are more VC stoves sitting in peoples home than any other manufacturer? Web when is the last time you burned a modern VC stove? was it in this decade? Tell us your recent personal experience you draw upon? At least when I talk about a product I have it here and opperate 24/7 far beyond recreational use
    I draw my info from direct hands on operations ,Not some decade old BS.

    Sir do you really want to know about that stove what to look for to determine its condition? From a person that has recently rebuilt those stoves? My post is trying to help the person and disclaim BS ,that is of no help. I can tell you what to look for where to place straight edges Where to shine a flash light to expose casting joint and if you post pictures make a very good educated guess upon that stove's condition I offering constructive help and advice. What one would have expected from the Webmaster but did not. He would rather diss the crap out of a product than offer help or be constructive
  19. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    Elk, instead of pimping for a manufacturer, why don't you tell the prospective buyer how much you paid for all the parts that you used to refurb your Encore - plus how much you would have paid labor wise if you had a pro do it.

    That is REAL information.....

    I sold a LOT of these catalytic Encores - same exact model. My customers were mostly happy, but the heavy users complained when it cost them well over $500 for a new cat, ceramics, gasket and labor after 5 years or so......often the bill was closer to $700. Most people cannot DIY.

    Keep in mind that I sold stoves in NJ, a climate two zones south of New England. No, the Encores were not "defective", there were not good and bad ones in terms of longevity (among same models and years) - but the stoves (like a lot of VCs) is complex, has a high parts count and refurb is more difficult than replacing a few firebricks. That is not an opinion - that is a fact.

    So please calm down - or I'll have to send you to OJ's anger management classes.

    The bottom line is this - I would not (myself) purchase a used (older) Encore other than one in pristine condition - meaning one where the original owner was not a serious wood burner. That is my opinion. As far as the newer ones - maybe they are better. VC dealers will let you know that in 5 years, maybe.....

    Your opinion of the stove is welcome. Your opinion of MY OPINION is NOT WELCOME.....so please keep it to yourself (in other words, be nice), or the delete and edit buttons will be put to work.
  20. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    Well, I guess that means you know the sales figures of Travis, Jotul, Regency and all the others - please share them with us. Also, let us know why VC just closed their foundry and laid off the workers for three weeks (in the middle of high stove production season!)......

    As far as big selling stoves, remember that the Taiwan Dutchwests were eating VC's lunch.....the worse stoves made were outselling the best at the time! So much so that VC felt forced to buy dutchwest, a move which drove VC to ruin (the first time).

    Funny, the other day I was doing some research on VC history and came across some court cases regarding payment of disability insurance by VC to employees that hurt themselves. One of them specified the salary of the employee - $6.58 an hour - That was way back in 1995 - they may be American jobs, but this ain't your daddys General Motors! That figure was well below the poverty level even then......

    Hey, VC put a lot of money in my pocket - as folks know, I sold them for years! Thousands of them. In the last week I have visited with 3 of their former and "top" employees (one slept here last night!).....although I am not "inside" like Elk, I do know a thing or two about the company and the products......

    Of course, as I will always say, that is MY opinion and experience. I burned an Acclaim myself and would have another...then again, I got my parts for free.
  21. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    OH, I didn't see you mention that stove - nah, that is another one I would stay away from at that price - that is probably close the original selling price! Maybe if it was given to you for the hauling.....
  22. elkimmeg

    elkimmeg Guest

    In !972 I got paid $2 50 per hour not that has thing to do with the discussion like what workers got in 1995
    Web you still did not tell me how I can graduate to more than a recreational user?

    You failed to point out one problem desert islanders have had with an Encore yet you set that incident as the example.

    You have no burning experience in this Decade under current ownership. Again you failed to address that question

    I ccan replace a cat for $140 without removing one bolt and do it in less than 5 minutes and stove dealers charge $500 Man I got to get into that business

    All the parts on my stove I said I have $20 in gaskets that's it $20 Even the cat was in good condition
    Yess I cleaned it up blew it out with an air gun but that all I did with my current Encore. It is now approaching 8 years old and no major replacement parts needed of anticipated.

    Here the difference here I working with hands on actual stove and not projecting foundless wide brush stroke statements abet VC has n more stove in American homes than any other manufacturer IT was told to me But I will being researching to validate the claim Please find data to validate you desert island concern.

    You ask me to validate. concern well I'm asking you to address the concerns I raised

    While at please explain why you refused the offer When I handed VC over 4 years back to be a gold sponsor. At the time you told me you had enough sponsors.

    LEt's be honest here You have arrangement with completive companies And refused to sponsor VC ,so in an effort to support your other sponsors you diss the crap out of VC

    IT is so transparent I'm surprised others have not seen this.

    Tell me web the dissing the crap out of VC is good for membership here? Telling all you VC members they should have not bought their stoves due to expected expensive repairs.
    Really is it wise to insinuate that all Hearth members that purchased VC products were fools. Talk about turning off members.

    Last week you made statememts throwing OWB members under the bus this week it VC owners?

    On a financial end I would not make statements that would alienate A large group of my supported membership Base. I would measure the ramifications of wide brush statements very wisely. This is not Rah Rah VC, But common sense
  23. elkimmeg

    elkimmeg Guest

    Let's be honest here QC was an issue in the mid 90's with this manufacturer But being truthful and honest would, be supporting you claims with the proper percentage of issues
    Instead of inferring all stoves suffered these issues, which is not the case. You ask me to support what I claim I'm asking yo to do the same.

    Being fair and truthful is a two way street

    Since Vc was the largest manufacturer dating back from the mid 70 and remained that way till today I think it fair to draw the statement." more VC stoves reside in American homes than any other manufactures"
    When it closest Competition only imports less than 1/2 their total volume statistics will point in my favor of this claim. At leasts I'm trying to back up my claims. But I welcome any true statistical date to prove me wrong .

    Today's Ebay search function Vermont castings listings 32 Jotul 8 Travis industries 7 PE 13
  24. budman

    budman Minister of Fire

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    I smell smoke. :grrr:
  25. 11 Bravo

    11 Bravo New Member

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    Rhetoric, I have a Century that's at least 7 yrs old, says "by Jacuzzi" on it, so I am usure who makes it. The one I have is a Menard's/Lowes special, no secondary burn unit, but has a large fire box. I light it, it gets hot and heats my house, nothing special, and I have just replaced all the bricks and gaskets this year. I see that the Century at Menards now have secondary burn tubes across the top and come in 2 different sizes. I have the larger size and it does the job.
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