This past summer I cleaned up a defiant II, the stove was originally purchased in 1983.I was lucky enough to buy it from the original owner.I have been having open fires with damper open,the other day I closed the damper to burn for the first time over night.Although this is a new experience with the defiant I heated the house with wood in the 80s and 90s with a upland 207,somewhat of a similar stove.The upland burned like a cigarette from the side loading door to the other end.The other night when I shut down the defiant after getting a good bed of embers the stove seemed to flare up and the temperature went from 350 to 625 in what seemed like minutes.I also had some some smoke leakage from the front doors,I think after I put new gaskets on the stove I adjusted the doors not tight enough after the new gaskets.The amount of wood I put in the stove when I banked it down with damper closed was minimal having been the first time.When I closed the stove down I opened the side loading door, shut the front doors ,then put a few pieces of wood in the side,I closed the side door slightly until the wood took hold.I then closed the side door and then the damper,having not much experience with this stove I was not sure where to set the thermostat on the back of the stove or the small air vent near the loading door.After the stove seemed to take off having not put much wood in I opened the damper and then the side door slowly,then I opened the front doors and let the fire go out.This all happened very quickly so nothing happened to either stove or chimney.If anyone has any thoughts on what happened or any advice on setting the thermostat or burning the stove in general would be greatly appreciated.I have read that this stove burns great once you get the feel of it.Thanks Tim
vermont castings defiant II themostat
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Well, I'm not sure what happened with the gasket job. Do a dollar bill test and see if the gaskets gave you a tight seal.
As far as running the stove, it's easy as pie.
On new fire, the damper should be open and the gas pedal in the back should be open.
Sometimes on my resolute I leave the front door cracked 1/4 " to get the kindling going. (you can hear the draft) then close it up.
After a while, load small and medium stuff and let her burn, need a good bed of coals. I would only close the damper if it's going to 600 and I need to slow it down.
Your second load, load it full and let the fire get going 500-600. Close damper. Check gas pedal, it still should be open a little bit. ( as the stove heats up the spring closes the pedal) if the stove keeps getting hotter close the pedal more ( very slight adjustments ) when it stays at the temp you want, the secondary burn chamber is working. As the stove starts to cool during the burn cycle, the gas pedal spring will open allowing more air in the stove keeping it burning.
If your having a really hard time with the gas pedal, then make an adjustment to the primary air hole. There should be a round hole on the side that you can slide the cast iron over to adjust air. I never mess with this once it's in a good spot.
I always open the damper when I load the stove, because it allows the smoke to head out the chimney instead of in my house, and i always get the fire going good after loading it before I damper down.
Leave the gas pedal alone too, once you get it set where you want the stove to run, I leave it alone. If you want it to run hotter give it a little more air, etc...
Very easy stove to run. The gas pedal is the key. Look down at the box the pedal sits in, and you will see that what appears to be closed when your looking down at it from the top, is actually still letting air in. So at 650, that pedal should be closed.
550-650 is nothing for that stove to run at. I wish I had an old defiant, just to have
The small primary air vent, start with a 1/4 open, and see how it does. But i would fix the front door leak before I started burning again.
You can send me a pm if you need to.
Gizmo
As far as running the stove, it's easy as pie.
On new fire, the damper should be open and the gas pedal in the back should be open.
Sometimes on my resolute I leave the front door cracked 1/4 " to get the kindling going. (you can hear the draft) then close it up.
After a while, load small and medium stuff and let her burn, need a good bed of coals. I would only close the damper if it's going to 600 and I need to slow it down.
Your second load, load it full and let the fire get going 500-600. Close damper. Check gas pedal, it still should be open a little bit. ( as the stove heats up the spring closes the pedal) if the stove keeps getting hotter close the pedal more ( very slight adjustments ) when it stays at the temp you want, the secondary burn chamber is working. As the stove starts to cool during the burn cycle, the gas pedal spring will open allowing more air in the stove keeping it burning.
If your having a really hard time with the gas pedal, then make an adjustment to the primary air hole. There should be a round hole on the side that you can slide the cast iron over to adjust air. I never mess with this once it's in a good spot.
I always open the damper when I load the stove, because it allows the smoke to head out the chimney instead of in my house, and i always get the fire going good after loading it before I damper down.
Leave the gas pedal alone too, once you get it set where you want the stove to run, I leave it alone. If you want it to run hotter give it a little more air, etc...
Very easy stove to run. The gas pedal is the key. Look down at the box the pedal sits in, and you will see that what appears to be closed when your looking down at it from the top, is actually still letting air in. So at 650, that pedal should be closed.
550-650 is nothing for that stove to run at. I wish I had an old defiant, just to have
The small primary air vent, start with a 1/4 open, and see how it does. But i would fix the front door leak before I started burning again.
You can send me a pm if you need to.
Gizmo
Gizmo, thank you for responding to my post,that was great info. you passed on.I did the dollar bill test and found i needed to snug up the adjustment on the doors.The side door with the handle in the middle seems to tighten that door nicely the front door has the handle on the top and obviously makes the top a little tighter,I think I will be fine with the new adjustments.The gas pedal I will keep an eye on, I will take your advice and just barely open it.I plan on building a fire on friday I will let you know how I make out.Thanks
This is a very serious heat machine. It puts out a lot of btus. First, some terminology for the stove. There is a bypass damper, a primary air control (top, left rear of stove on the thermostatic coil) and a secondary air feed (the round hole on the left side with a pivoting cover). Normally the secondary air supply is left open at all times. Once the stove has warmed up from the starter fire, splits are added for the main burn. Let this fuel get fully aflame, then close the bypass damper with the primary air control open a bit. Let the stove equalize and secondary combustion to kick in. It's quite normal for the stove top to go up from 300 to 600+ at this time, that is what you want. When the room has warmed up, move the primary air control so that the flapper just closes off the air supply. At that point the stove should maintain the temp. Normal operating temp for this stove is about 650 at the beginning of the full secondary burn, settling down to about 550 after most of the wood has outgassed.
There is a manual (in two parts) for the original VC stoves posted in the wiki section.
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/wiki/Vermont_Castings_Older_Stove_Models/
There is a manual (in two parts) for the original VC stoves posted in the wiki section.
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/wiki/Vermont_Castings_Older_Stove_Models/
Thanks for all the good info,I am trying to get the feel for this defiant.The primary air feed that works on the coil seems to be a little tricky.This morning I loaded the stove on a good bed of embers,let me ask again about the embers.My upland 207 I raked the embers to the side door so the wood could burn like a cigarette ,I assume this is not done with the defiant.Please correct me if I am wrong.When I loaded the stove this morning at five thirty. I let her get going pretty good then closed the damper and adjusted the primary feed flapper so that it was open slightly,the round hole air feed I left open all the way.When I came in from hunting about six hours later my wife had a note saying that when she got up at seven the stove temp was a little over seven hundred,the primary flapper was all the way open.This same thing happened the other day and I just closed the flapper almost all the way.I do not want the stove to burn above 700 degrees. Plus I think I would use more wood if the stove runs to hot,I know that it should not run to cold either,550 would be nice. I put a rear heat shield on the stove,I read somewhere that the thermostat would work better.I do not need this shield because of wall clearance,is this shield my problem or what?? Any help is APPRECIATED .. THANKS ..
Something is wrong with your stove. the gas pedal (thermostatic) must have been damaged some how. Maybe the coil is damaged or broken. When the stove gets hotter the gas pedal closes. If the stove gets cooler the gas pedal opens.
Start looking for the problem. and then run some test burns and watch it.
good luck
Start looking for the problem. and then run some test burns and watch it.
good luck
Could be the thermostat is not working right. Best to watch it in action. Can you post a picture of the rear of the stove? We had another post recently where it sounded like the thermostatic coil was installed backwards and the damper was opening on warm up instead of closing. Also, was the house warm when your wife noted the stove temp? Did she move the air control lever to close the flap?
The only thing I can think of that would make the thermostat behave that way is if it was replaced with one for a Resolute by mistake. The bi-metallic coil on the Resolute is wound in the other direction, which would make the door open as the stove heated up rather than closing it.
Another thing to watch for is the flapper hanging up and not closing. It pivots on a cheap metal pin, and if things aren't just right the door can get stuck in the open position. Mine sticks often as not when I open the flapper all the way. I have to swing the handle to the left a bit to put slack in the chain and then tap the flapper with a fire poker and it drops down to the point that the chain is set for. From there on it will work fine as the stove heats up. I should get around to fixing it, but since I never leave the flapper all the way open except for startup, I just got so used to operating it this way that it's NBD at this point.
Another thing to watch for is the flapper hanging up and not closing. It pivots on a cheap metal pin, and if things aren't just right the door can get stuck in the open position. Mine sticks often as not when I open the flapper all the way. I have to swing the handle to the left a bit to put slack in the chain and then tap the flapper with a fire poker and it drops down to the point that the chain is set for. From there on it will work fine as the stove heats up. I should get around to fixing it, but since I never leave the flapper all the way open except for startup, I just got so used to operating it this way that it's NBD at this point.
Well,after listening to all of the good advice I watched the stove a little closer.It appeared as the stove got hotter the coil opened the draft instead of closing.I let the stove go out and removed the cover over the coil, with the stove now cold I heated the coil with a lighter and sure enough the flapper opened. The way the chain was fastened to the coil and gas pedal did not look right.It turned out that the coil was in fact installed up side down the thermostat arm should point up not down.The previous owner must have messed that up,I changed the coil around and it is working great. THANKS... for all the replies and advice.
I need a little more advice,I am the guy with the upside down thermostat on the defiant II.After solving that problem with all the help I have some new questions.What stove temp. is recomended for the defiant,after solving the thermostat problem the stove has been running at 400 degrees pretty steady,but I notice some creosote on the doors and damper area.I am burning good dry wood, I am guessing the stove is not burning hot enough, it seems I went from one extreme to another.I know that the cooler the stove runs the better chance for creosote.Also the secondary burn thing, I read I should see a blue flame or blue light when I look in the porthole after the stove is shut down.If that is not true how will I know when I have secondary burn. Like most wood burners I am always concerned about creosote,again any advice is welcome. Thanks
logroad: Here's one possibilty in regard to the secondary burn. The original Defiant I and Defiant II were the same except the Defiant II had a two piece fireback. In both cases, the stoves had a channel created by wire mesh and stove cement between the fireback and rear most casting. You can see this channel in schematic drawings from VC and in their rebuild manual for the Defiant. This channel was intended to direct unburned gasses back over the coals so that a rudimentary secondary burn was achieved. Problem was the mesh and stove cement arrangement tended to not last very long. The stove cement dried out and/or the arrangement was damaged in cleaning. The area between fireback and rear casting could also become clogged with fine ash when the area was not cleaned for a couple of years. Clogged or damaged, the path intended to produce secondary burn will not work as intended.
That said, the stoves did work fine if less efficiently without the secondary burn. I'm also not at all sure if you really can consistently see "blue flame" even if the secondary burn system is working.
The key to not producing creosote with this stove is to use dry wood - although it is very forgiving of less than ideally dried wood - and avoid running it in a damped down mode for extended periods. Defiant owners who had creosote troubles usually had purchased a stove too big for their needs so ran them with too little oxygen for too much of the time. Letting the stove run in the updraft mode for an hour or so each day can help a lot. A 450 to 500 degree surface temperature is probably a realistic minimum to avoid creosote.
Check your chimney after a month or so of burning.
That said, the stoves did work fine if less efficiently without the secondary burn. I'm also not at all sure if you really can consistently see "blue flame" even if the secondary burn system is working.
The key to not producing creosote with this stove is to use dry wood - although it is very forgiving of less than ideally dried wood - and avoid running it in a damped down mode for extended periods. Defiant owners who had creosote troubles usually had purchased a stove too big for their needs so ran them with too little oxygen for too much of the time. Letting the stove run in the updraft mode for an hour or so each day can help a lot. A 450 to 500 degree surface temperature is probably a realistic minimum to avoid creosote.
Check your chimney after a month or so of burning.
logroad: Here's one possibilty in regard to the secondary burn. The original Defiant I and Defiant II were the same except the Defiant II had a two piece fireback. In both cases, the stoves had a channel created by wire mesh and stove cement between the fireback and rear most casting. You can see this channel in schematic drawings from VC and in their rebuild manual for the Defiant. This channel was intended to direct unburned gasses back over the coals so that a rudimentary secondary burn was achieved. Problem was the mesh and stove cement arrangement tended to not last very long. The stove cement dried out and/or the arrangement was damaged in cleaning. The area between fireback and rear casting could also become clogged with fine ash when the area was not cleaned for a couple of years. Clogged or damaged, the path intended to produce secondary burn will not work as intended.
That said, the stoves did work fine if less efficiently without the secondary burn. I'm also not at all sure if you really can consistently see "blue flame" even if the secondary burn system is working.
The key to not producing creosote with this stove is to use dry wood - although it is very forgiving of less than ideally dried wood - and avoid running it in a damped down mode for extended periods. Defiant owners who had creosote troubles usually had purchased a stove too big for their needs so ran them with too little oxygen for too much of the time. Letting the stove run in the updraft mode for an hour or so each day can help a lot. A 450 to 500 degree surface temperature is probably a realistic minimum to avoid creosote.
Check your chimney after a month or so of burning.
That said, the stoves did work fine if less efficiently without the secondary burn. I'm also not at all sure if you really can consistently see "blue flame" even if the secondary burn system is working.
The key to not producing creosote with this stove is to use dry wood - although it is very forgiving of less than ideally dried wood - and avoid running it in a damped down mode for extended periods. Defiant owners who had creosote troubles usually had purchased a stove too big for their needs so ran them with too little oxygen for too much of the time. Letting the stove run in the updraft mode for an hour or so each day can help a lot. A 450 to 500 degree surface temperature is probably a realistic minimum to avoid creosote.
Check your chimney after a month or so of burning.
I'm not sure how you went from 700 degrees to only being able to reaching 400 degrees, just by fixing the thermostat. As posted above, run the stove up to temps before turning the damper down. It sounds like your just running the stove on weekends? If so, the stove will not be ready for good secondary combustion when you first start it up. With the resolute, after starting it and letting it burn down a little, Ill load it up (second load) and run it up to 550-600 degrees before closing the damper. Still, the stove does not have a well established coal base to allow perfect secondary bun. Adjust the gas pedal to give it more air that normal. On a second load, I wont load it up full and tight, the coal base isn't ready yet. I'm basically burning wood get get my coal base.
On your third and fourth load you should have good coals for secondary burn. But when you reload, run the temps up before closing the damper. Then you will be able to adjust the gas pedal to run at the temp you desire. Check you chimney, and you can see if your stove is giving a good secondary burn. These old stoves are called smoke dragons, because you can really choke them down to a smolder. If you load and damper down too soon it will smoke. When the temps are up and the secondary chamber is working, you can burn pretty clean. Quite surprising for an old stove and old technology. If the ash and coals are really high, I rake mine forward towards the front of the stove so the ash doesn't block the secondary holes along the back of the stove. I also run the vacuum along these holes to suck out any fly ash during cleaning.
People run these defiant's 24/7 and they are very forgiving. I had a crack in the back fire wall, secondary burn chamber. I ran the stove just fine for another year before I replaced it. Keep playing with it.
On your third and fourth load you should have good coals for secondary burn. But when you reload, run the temps up before closing the damper. Then you will be able to adjust the gas pedal to run at the temp you desire. Check you chimney, and you can see if your stove is giving a good secondary burn. These old stoves are called smoke dragons, because you can really choke them down to a smolder. If you load and damper down too soon it will smoke. When the temps are up and the secondary chamber is working, you can burn pretty clean. Quite surprising for an old stove and old technology. If the ash and coals are really high, I rake mine forward towards the front of the stove so the ash doesn't block the secondary holes along the back of the stove. I also run the vacuum along these holes to suck out any fly ash during cleaning.
People run these defiant's 24/7 and they are very forgiving. I had a crack in the back fire wall, secondary burn chamber. I ran the stove just fine for another year before I replaced it. Keep playing with it.
After playing with the stove for a while and listening to what everyone suggested I think I have a handle on this beast.No,I was not just running it on weekends,the solution seems to be letting the stove temp. reach 550 or 600 before closing the damper.At that point the stove settles down to 400 or 425 then goes back up to around 500 for a steady burn.The stove is definitely burning cleaner,and the thermostat is working nicely after installing it properly.As I get more comfortable with the defiant I am going to let the stove temp.go up a bit,I think I am achieving secondary burn at this point .Like was said earlier the stove is pretty easy to run.I will keep you posted on how the beast performs.Thanks again for all the great advice.
I just installed a Defiant unit myself. The model appears to be the 1A version, though I am not certain. It has 2 piece back, removable legs, solid top exhaust collar, griddle, double solid front doors, side door on left, and damper lever above that side door. My problem seems exact to that discussed above. The shutter door opens with heat. Looking down through the thermostat, from the stove front, the chain and arm are left of the coil axis. I believe the chain would run perfectly vertical if it were on the right of the coil, and would also then move in the correct direction. Can anyone verify the stove model and/or the chain routing?
It's been too long since I had our VC stove for me to remember how this is assembled. But I think the adjustment was by the length of the chain.
The manual is posted on our wiki, it's in two parts:
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/wiki/Vermont_Castings_Older_Stove_Models/
The manual is posted on our wiki, it's in two parts:
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/wiki/Vermont_Castings_Older_Stove_Models/
Got it done. The lever is threaded into the stove with springs to create tightness. The clip that holds the chain is "handed". That clip is riveted onto the lever spring. I removed the thermostat cover, unwound the lever until it came off the stove. I drilled the rivet off the spring and rotated the clip 180 degrees. I riveted it back in place and reinstalled. It seems to be correct now. I will update after a test.
Well after an afternoon of adjusting the thermostat, it does it's job perfectly. I awoke this morning to a house at 69 degrees and a stove with an 1 1/2" of red coals. Last night at 11 pm, I loaded it about 60% full with 4 logs and closed the thermostat, opening the small inlet about 75%. It was in the upper teens overnight and windy. The thermostat was cracked open about an inch this morning when I loaded the stove at 5:45 am
I am heating the house by having the stove in the basement and leaving the basement door ajar on the first floor. The house is a Cape, about 1800 sq ft.
Thanks for the assistance.
I am heating the house by having the stove in the basement and leaving the basement door ajar on the first floor. The house is a Cape, about 1800 sq ft.
Thanks for the assistance.
Great, I am glad to hear you solved your problem.I am also in a learning process with my defiant,I also had to change my thermostat.When you loaded your stove at 11 pm you said you closed the thermostat all the way and opened the thumb hole 75 percent,what was your stove temp. when you went to bed and what was it in the morning.I am guessing it was up there with that many coals in the morning.I am kind of doing the opposite I open the thermostat about an inch and close the thumb hole 75 percent.Every thing seems to be working ok, but I do not have that many coals in the morning. I also loaded the stove at 11 pm and checked it at 6:30 am.Any new advice is always welcome.Thanks.
mywaynow said:
Good news. I'm wondering if some people have had the Resolute thermostat put on their Vigilants or Defiants by mistake. The manual says that the coil is reversed for the Resolute.
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