Wall Warm around adjacent to chimney

  • Active since 1995, Hearth.com is THE place on the internet for free information and advice about wood stoves, pellet stoves and other energy saving equipment.

    We strive to provide opinions, articles, discussions and history related to Hearth Products and in a more general sense, energy issues.

    We promote the EFFICIENT, RESPONSIBLE, CLEAN and SAFE use of all fuels, whether renewable or fossil.
Status
Not open for further replies.

wallpaper79

Member
Jul 23, 2008
60
NL Canada
I am very pleased to say that I just purchased a new pacific insert and couldn't be happier with it. I only have one question that I hope someone can answer. The chimney runs up through the middle of the house. Yesterday as I was hanging a picture over the fireplace I noticed that the wall was a little warm. I then went up stairs and discovered that the wall next to the chimney was warm there as well. I have had a WETT come in and look and it. He said that the masonary brick is heating up and transferring heat to the wall. He wasn't concerned about it. Just said for me to put some vents in the walls around the chimney. I just wanted to get other thoughts.

Cheers, Peter
 
Peter - did you ever line that chimney?

I don't like the idea of adding "vents in the walls around the chimney" for two reasons:

1 - giving CO an easy route into the living space

2 - taking heat away from the chimney means cooling it off, which increases creosote condensation.

If this is an lined chimney, and esp. if the liner was insulated, my concerns would drop (except then I might worry how hot you're getting your flue if you had that much heat-xfer thru liner/insulation/masonry/air gaps/plaster). But I'm guessing you have not yet lined - I think you're asking for trouble. Walls adjacent to chimneys get hot all the time - lots of thermal energy there.
 
Well that's great news! Do you have any way of monitoring the flue temps? How tall is the liner/chimney now? No insulation, right?
 
There is no insulation around the liner. I was wondering about buying a BBQ thermometer and setting it on the flue. Since the stove is an insert I can't put a normal flue thermometer on it. The Liner and chimney are about 4-5 feet above the roof.
 
I put vents high and low on the chase enclosing my SS chimney. The convection air cools the chase and salvages heat that would otherwise go out the chimney.
 
Thanks for the advice so far. I think I will put in vents in the next couple of days. Is it normal for the wall surrounding a chimney flue to warm up? If so how much heat is too much? My parents and all my brothers have exterior chimney flues, so they are not much good when it comes to comparison.
 
Since the chimney chase spans multiple floors, you could be defeating some natural firestops by putting in vents. I had proper firestops between floors and only put vents in the chase within one floor.

You might want to consider fusible dampers in the vents.

Yes, it is normal for an adjacent wall to get warm when warm air is trapped in the space. "Warm" is a subjective term so without actual numbers and without knowing what combustible material is how close, it is all just conjecture.
 
I don't have actual temperatures, but I can easily bear my hand to the wall. I don't know the clearances as of yet to the chimney. The house is ~80 YRS old so I suspect the normal 2 inch clearance will not be present. I think my biggest fear is that the building material will dry out behind the wall.....Possible fire hazard?
 
Wallpaper79 - My guess is that your brick flue does nothave the required airspace clearances around the flue to combustibles. My 75 year old house in Nova Scotia does not have the airspace needed for wood. Oil and coal flues did not need airspace, modern solid fuel codes demand needs 1 or 2 inches, depending. My WETT installer knew nothing about that requirement, and said WETT didn't teach them about insulating liners. I called WETT, they, of course, say different, and that I in fact need an insulated liner to meet code requirements. In fact, most of the liner systems I've looked at mention the requirement for airspace around the brick flue right on the CSA/UL approval tag.

Bottom line - if you do not have 1 to 2 inches of airspace around your brick chimney, you need an insulated liner to meet code.

The danger is that over the long term, exposure to repeated high heat can increase the risk of fire, especially since your liner is designed to experience 1200F all day, every day. Eventually, at that temp, you will burn your house down. The question was asked in another thread about actual reports of fires when insulation was not used but was required, and the answer was that some manufacturers are getting reports of evidence of excessive heat transfer, but not fires. Wait 10-20 years, and we will be insulating liners at the same rate as we are now replacing old non EPA stoves, except it will be a safety vice efficiency issue.

As for air cooling your flue with vents - likely not a good idea - fire break issues, and usually the space around your flue is a major source air leakage to your attic anyways, so installing a vent is likely going to intoduce more moisture to your attic than give you heat.

To me WETT certification is like any other licence, lots of licensed tradespeople pay no attention to code, rules, safety, or even the laws of physics. Except, it isn't a license, it is a marketing programme that gives some training, and let's you hang a WETT sign out so that you can differentiate yourself from the other guy who didn't bother with the courses. It is voluntary, and you and I could get WETT certification in short order - that wouldn't make us any smarter, just give you better marketing potential IMHO.Lots of folks go to class and pass tests without learning anything.

The general public place these WETT guys on a pedestal, like they can do no wrong, and like what they say would always be right. The guy who told you to cut vents in the wall to cool the flue, after being called because he was WETT certified has just proven to me that he didn't learn anything about code or safety, let alone about keeping the heat in a house, while he sat in the classroom
 
Brian, thanks for all the info. I guess I will start looking at insulating the liner. I don't want to take any chances. Do you know if there will be any problem with insulating the liner I just put in? I see that you can buy vermiculite insulation to place around existing liners. I don't see how that would work though. I guess as I put it down the chimney it would fall onto the insert. Any information would be great. Do you think it would be OK to leave the insulation until the spring?
Thanks again.
 
When you lined, did you not put in a blockoff plate above the insert? The insulation should fall down onto the blockoff plate (I'm considering insulating mine too, but it's already drafting too hard). If the liner just runs down with nothing there, you are likely losing a lot of heat up the chimney, as opposed to keeping it down in the room where you want it.

Think about what happens the first time you pull the insert out, if you don't have a plate! insulation = dumped on floor!
 
I don't know if they put in a block-off plate or not. Would that be difficult now that the liner is in? Is it sonething that I could do myself? Should the installer have done it? I know, lots of questions. Thanks again and Merry Christmas.
 
The plate is just a piece of sheetmetal that spans the full opening of the top of the firebox / bottom of the flue, with the liner stuck thru the center of it. it should be sealed on the edges (high-temp silicone could be used) and around the pipe (w/ refractory cement) to prevent hot air moving up around the liner. Unless you're experienced with sheetmetal, and have both the tools and the arm/hand strength to Conan the plate up into place, I would not recommend you try to do it yourself.

You should find out if the installer put one in. They probably did. You may be able to pull the surround off your insert and either see it or reach in there (when it's COLD) and feel it, depending on the details of the installation...
 
wallpaper79 said:
Brian, thanks for all the info. I guess I will start looking at insulating the liner. I don't want to take any chances. Do you know if there will be any problem with insulating the liner I just put in? I see that you can buy vermiculite insulation to place around existing liners. I don't see how that would work though. I guess as I put it down the chimney it would fall onto the insert. Any information would be great. Do you think it would be OK to leave the insulation until the spring?
Thanks again.

What Brand of liner is installed? Did you install yourself, or have a company install?

Insulating the liner depends on the instructions from the liner manufacturer - many ways will get the job done, but only thier way will keep an insurance company happy. In the end, you need to follow thier recommendations - assuming that they permit it to be insulated. If they didn't bother testing it with insulation, then you can't, 'cause there won't be a tested method of insulating it.

Most companies do have a published insulation method. Let us know what brand is installed.

Sorry to be a "legalist" on the issue, but I am in the midst of having my WETT installer get mine done right, and to code. If you had a WETT installer do yours, then he should be doing the work for free, and you paying for the materials. That is what I am asking of my installer.

For the non-legalist, there is the ceramic wrap, poured Thermix (Perlite/vermiculite and cement), and loose perlite/vermiculite. Given that Perlite/Vermiculite retain water (they are the little white specs in your potting soil), they aren't a great option on thier own IMHO.

Hope that helps.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.