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What are the chances of this stove ever functioning properly?

Post in 'The Hearth Room - Wood Stoves and Fireplaces' started by elkimmeg, Aug 22, 2006.

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  1. elkimmeg

    elkimmeg Guest

    This was part of a post that ended up in the ash can. Today's inspection was a direct connection into an 8/ 12 masonry chimney
    Jotul Kenebec insert. (Nice looking insert ) Inspection appointment is 10:00 Am. When i get there, the chimneysweeps installers, are just uncreating the box. The owner ask if I want to look at the chimney and location it will be going into? This is a blip in the code interior location is 3x the cross sectional area flue liner is 8/12 about 80 sq in. I look up the fire place and see enought cresote there. I ask the owner if he had contracted the sweeps to clean it first. He ask me if it is necessary? I tell him he should burn seasond wood and if he does it with the new insert it will never function correctly.. Plus the insert will be pulled out again, for chimney cleaning before I approve it. Man it was nasty I think 2" thick in places. The chimney does not go straight up either it jogs to the left about 45 degrees then continues up.

    Re hash this setup: direct connect 8/12 clay liner round to oval pice threw the damper and chimney jogs offset. What are the chances it will function properly. IT met code I had to pass it. So Im' sitting at the table signing the permit and I asked the owners, wife present now, If the chimney sweeps gave them breakin proceedures? No. I asked him if he had dry wood and I talked loud enough the wife could hear. I mean not the wet junk that caused the huge cresote build up. I am signing the permit and telling them if the stove back puffs everytime you open the door and it is hard starting and hard to keep going look no further than the way it is connected. IT should be fully lined. Now the wife is listening. She ask me why And I tell them again, The next question is it safe? It did pas code but I would never have that setup in my home. Her eyes are growing, we all have seen that look before.
    She said I thought you told me this was the best way? I don't need anymore hints This is a condo we have to install the insert the safest way possible. We own it to our neighbors. / Walking down the stairs and about the door, her voice now quite a bit louder, you cheap son of a b___ Now I walking fast to my truck

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  2. BrotherBart

    BrotherBart Hearth.com LLC Mid-Atlantic Division Staff Member

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    How in the hell does a municipal inspector pass a stove installation with two inch accumulations of creosote in the chimney?

    That town has to have a Fire Chief around there somewhere. You don't even have to buy him a beer for this one.
  3. the_guad

    the_guad New Member

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    I don't understand some people. I get trying to save money, but a full reline compared to a positive connection only saves a couple hundred dollars at most... right? I mean, that is less than 5% of the overall cost of the full install.
  4. MountainStoveGuy

    MountainStoveGuy New Member

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    probably more like $1000 installed.

    And i dont think it will ever work properly without it.
  5. Shane

    Shane Minister of Fire

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    Just because the chimneys dirty doesn't mean that it won't meet code standards. Now if they were relining it and intended to leave it dirty that's just asking for it. We all saw pictures of what can happen in that situation last year and Karen Duke told us a horror story or two about this situation. I always was under the impression that not cleaning the chimney prior to liner install would lead to odor problems, I never considered what would happen if it actually ignited, scary stuff.
  6. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    As far as working properly, it is very possible it will work fine. As I have said before, MILLIONS of EPA stoves have been installed without full relines and my guess is that over 80% of them work very well. In my personal experience (our shop), well over 90% of them work very well.

    I can understand upgrade, doing it right, etc....but I don't understand the thinking that says the millions of stoves in the field are all unsatisfactory and burning down houses on a regular basis (they are not!). My customers were VERY happy with their terrible direct connections, and they sent all their friends in to buy more of the same...OH, and in 20+ years I never heard from a lawyer about burning anyones house down.

    Sometimes I think we blow things our of perspective. Certainly it is possible the stove will not draft correctly - and then they can upgrade to a full liner - not a real big deal.

    Anyway, in this case, maybe it is good they are not lining it full yet since they can use anti-creosote stuff in there for a year and maybe some of that junk will brush out next spring.
  7. MountainStoveGuy

    MountainStoveGuy New Member

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    Its against the law in boulder county, and some other counties in the front range. I dont see how you can get good draft in a large chimney like that. I have just the oppisit experence were 90% of the ones i saw didnt work. Now since its a law, there isnt many i have seen. But, the cabin i rented while i was building this house had a napoleon insert in a old old old masonry chimney,. I never got it to run right, and it was cool when i set that baby off, sounded like a 747 in my living room. The chimney burned it self out , of course i reported the chimney fire to the landlord, and he still didnt get it lined, or inspected! I had to keep burning because that was the only fuel source in that cabin. I always sleept with one eye open. Maybe its differnt at sea level, one thing for shure, is direct connect does not work in the mountains, not even a 8x8 clay flue.

    Ok, forget function, what about cleaning? it cost alot more to have your insert pulled every time to have you chimney cleaned, and around here that can be twice a year.
  8. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    In my own home, I had a 12 x 12 flue tile and had about 20 various units installed into it over the years, including a Resolute Acclaim as the last unit, and they all worked perfectly. Of course, we made really tight sealing plates, and the Acclaim had a direct connection.

    Climate and altitude can also have something to do with it. My shop as in NJ, quite mild and at sea level.

    We even installed hundreds of coal stoves over the years - and they are even harder drafting! Imagine coal stoves with 5" chimney pipe just installed into 12x12 flue tiles...yes, this was really the ONLY way it was done, since chimney lining was virtually unheard of!

    I am not saying that it is not an improvement to line. It surely is - and it is also safer to drive around in Elks Mack dumptruck, and in fact the safest course of action would be for no one to buy or use a wood stove! But I doubt we will see many here expressing that opinion...

    The proof is in the pudding. This stove might work great - although I tend to think it may not mostly because it is a cat! But the consumer is free to make this choice. Builders put in $99. sheet metal fireplaces every day, and Elk has to sign off on these also...even though they leak tons of cold air into a house. He has to sign off on masonry fireplace - that have been proven to fail UL tests...in fact, are subject to NO tests of either longevity nor safety.

    Consumer choice....it is a good thing. We all make daily decision to spend less and often get less....and sometimes we say it is worth the savings, and other times we say we should have upgraded.

    BTW, here are some of the first building codes:

    Building codes have a long history. What is generally accepted as the first building code was in the Code of Hammurabi which specified:

    * 229. If a builder build a house for some one, and does not construct it properly, and the house which he built fall in and kill its owner, then that builder shall be put to death.
    * 230. If it kill the son of the owner the son of that builder shall be put to death.
    * 231. If it kill a slave of the owner, then he shall pay slave for slave to the owner of the house.
    * 232. If it ruin goods, he shall make compensation for all that has been ruined, and inasmuch as he did not construct properly this house which he built and it fell, he shall re-erect the house from his own means.
    * 233. If a builder build a house for some one, even though he has not yet completed it; if then the walls seem toppling, the builder must make the walls solid from his own means.
  9. MountainStoveGuy

    MountainStoveGuy New Member

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    those laws only applied if you were upperclass or roayalty!
    The laws of our county dont allow direct connects, and neither did Hammurabi.

    Some of my favriot Hammurabi codes:
    209 If a freeman struck another freemans daughter and caused her to have a misscarriage, he shall pay 10 sheikels of silver for her fetus.
    210 if that woman has died thay shall put his daughter to death
    211 If a blow he has caused a commoners daughter to have a misscarriage, he shall pay 5 shikels of silver
    212 if that woman has died, he shall pay one half mina of silver.
    213 if he struck a freemans slave and has caused her to have a misscarriage, he shall pay 2 shiekes of silver
    214 If the female slave has died, he shall pay 1/3 mina of silver

    Boulder county on the other hand applies the rules to everyone,
    no open firplaces
    no dircect connects
    epa phase 2 and 3 only
    mandated no burn days for grandfatherd stoves
  10. berlin

    berlin New Member

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    damn, me and craig are agreeing on something. I personally know many, many people with new and old inserts stoves etc. that direct connect into clay, including my heating appliances, and all function excellent. I also know a few people that have relined for one reason or another, and have seen no major difference in performance at all. perhaps masons in boulder don't know how to build chimneys.
  11. MountainStoveGuy

    MountainStoveGuy New Member

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    I guess this subject will be debated to the death, just like cat vs non cat. I dont have to worry about it, number one im a cash and carry store, we dont do any installs. I tell customers the rules and i guess from that point its between them and the installer. And its the law here. So thats that. Personaly, i think its nuts not to reline, hell alot of these stoves dont work that well on 8 inch flues! Much less a 12x12 chimney. As stated elsewear, all of us dealers are conspiring to rip you off. Heck, dont buy a liner!
    Craig, what is the most modern stove you burned in that 12x12 flue?
    :)
  12. jabush

    jabush Feeling the Heat

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    Knowing what I know now (after hanging on this board), I would have probably been fine with a direct connect to my 8" tile lined chimney, but the full liner gives me piece of mind and an awsome draft to boot. Plus, when I finally upgrade to a new(er) stove, it should be an easy install for me since the chimney had already been addressed.


    joel
  13. hearthtools

    hearthtools Moderator Emeritus

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    Just as a rule we WILL NOT install any insert or Hearthmount with out a full Reline.
    Just takes away Liability. I have lost a few sales and I will Sleep with a lighter cash drawer but I can sleep better.

    If someone whats to to a Slam install then they can take the stove and install it them self.
    I just put on the invoice that Draft problems are not caused by the stove but by the venting.
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