What is better than a Smoke Detector ?? --- UPDATE

[raygard]

A Wife with a sensitive nose.

Sound asleep at 1.50am this morning I hear my wife screaming "Ray, there's lots of smoke, check the fire. I'll get the kids". Instantly my eyes fly open adrenalin starts kicking. Sure as eggs, smell lots of smoke. Bolt out of bed and hands collides with chest of drawers (may have fractured bones in hand) and fly down stairs and toward the stove (VC Encore #2550). A lot of smoke in the living room where the stove is but, thank my luck stars, no fire. That is no fire on the outside of the stove and no fire on the inside of the stove either. Wife screaming at kids to wake them up. I look through the glass doors and "Whump" from the stove and more smoke. Phew, Backpuffing. Open the air, fire picks right up. Call out to wife that all is ok. Kids back to bed, open windows, start freezing, turn on blower to assist in cycling air through the filter. Calm down on the adrenalin.

Prior to going to sleep at 11.30 I had put more wood into the stove and because it was late I didn't allow enough time to "gently" choke the air off and the backpuffing must have started later on and then slowly, through convection, cycled upstairs. In hindsight, I am amazed that the smoke alarms didn't go off (tested regularly, new batteries the works) but they didn't go off. So, after my tale, I know that a couple of firefighters are part of the crew of hearth.com, here is my question. At what point do smoke detectors sound off. In my old house the smoke detector was next to the kitchen and when something got burnt the alarm would sound (rather regularly), yet in this house the smoke detectors are in all the stairwells and the room where the stove is yet the alarm didn't go off. How sensitive are these things.

Alls well that ends well, yet I thought I'd pass my tale on. Don't choke your system down too fast.

Ray

 

[maverick06]

ugh, that sucks! Glad all were ok!

I had the same thing happen... It was warm outside and smoke came back inside. The smoke alarm and the CO detector didnt go off. The cat woke us up meowing at the bedroom door.

 

[velvetfoot]

I put photo electric and ionization detectors in same locations around the house. Looks goofy, but now have both technologies. They make combo units now, but I had some problems with an early BRK model.

 

[pen]

placement of smoke detectors are key. If you really want an evaluation, give a floor diagram and a picture of each fire detectors location. There are many "dead air" pockets around a house. If a fire alarm is in one of these, then it is likely not to go off until far too late.

pen

 

[rijim]

Location of detectors can have an impact, convection will cause air to channel up the stairs. Are detectors on a flat ceiling located between the stove and stairwell? This should help get earlier warning depending on air currents through the house.
Jim

 

[velvetfoot]

Here is my tale, more or less:
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/46546/P0/

 

[stejus]

My understanding of smoke/fire detectors are they sence a sudden change in temp and not smoke. If it were just smoke, people who smoke in there house would have these going off all the time. I could be way off here, but this is what I thought I read somewhere.

 

[Fredo]

Ray, first of all thank God that all went well at home. As for smoke and heat detectors I purchased mine from MasterGuard Fire Safety Solutions.

This company is out of Coppell Texas and have been around for over 30 years. You are gonna pay more for these units but they are far superior to what large hardware supply houses sell.


Here is their Toll Free Number, 866-903-5829 If you call them they will answer many of the questions that concern you.
You can even look them up on line where you can learn more about their product.


Fredo

 

[CTguy9230]

if your house was that full of smoke then i'd say you need a new detector
or else new batteries in the one you have.

i know the one i have is so sensitive that even minor smoke from cooking will
set it off

 

[BrotherBart]

I have the same question. I chronicled my stove filling the place with smoke a few weeks ago. Not one detector in the place went off. Now that downstairs one is equidistant, to the inch, from the wood stove and the kitchen range. Forty foot straight shot between them. The flat ceiling runs from the stove/fireplace wall through the kitchen. Yet with the family/stove room and kitchen full of smoke the detector didn't go off.

Two days later two pieces of toast, lightly toasted, in the toaster next to the range at the other end set the interconnected things off all over the house/basement/garage where it sounded like somebody hit a slot machine in Vegas.

 

[rijim]

My understanding of smoke/fire detectors are they sence a sudden change in temp and not smoke. If it were just smoke, people who smoke in there house would have these going off all the time. I could be way off here, but this is what I thought I read somewhere.

I think you are referring to heat detectors that are specified with a rate of rise. Ionization and photoelectric smoke function differently but both react to particulate matter in the air.

Jim

 

[firefighterjake]

My understanding of smoke/fire detectors are they sence a sudden change in temp and not smoke. If it were just smoke, people who smoke in there house would have these going off all the time. I could be way off here, but this is what I thought I read somewhere.

Actually your understanding is wrong . . . a change in temp would be detected by a heat detector and not a smoke detector.

As good as the OP's wife nose is . . . at night . . . when in a deep sleep . . . I would rather put my faith in (as mentioned by another poster) a combination ion/photo-electric detector or one of each located in the proper locations -- proper both in specific location of the home (every level of the home, outside the hall and in every bedroom) specific to the location -- on ceiling or wall (generally about 6-12 inches away from the corners as smoke tends to curl around.) Obviously air currents and room layouts can be factors to when a detector alarms . . . and if a detector is 10 years or older it's time to replace it.

And yes . . . folks that smoke all the time often disable the detector.

 

[firefighterjake]

Ray, first of all thank God that all went well at home. As for smoke and heat detectors I purchased mine from MasterGuard Fire Safety Solutions.

This company is out of Coppell Texas and have been around for over 30 years. You are gonna pay more for these units but they are far superior to what large hardware supply houses sell.


Here is their Toll Free Number, 866-903-5829 If you call them they will answer many of the questions that concern you.
You can even look them up on line where you can learn more about their product.


Fredo

NOOOOOOOOOOO! For the love of God NOOOOOOOOOO . . . I have serious concerns and issues with this company . . . mainly because their product is fine . . . but the way they use half truths and half facts and basically scare folks into buying their over-priced detectors is to me borderline unethical.

This company is also owned by a parent company now selling similar product under the Home Link brand . . . recently someone contacted me after being invited to a free dinner and fire safety presentation (the usual modus operandi of the local companies hawking these products) . . . said the company wanted to charge them $1,600 for four smoke detectors and one CO detector. I can guarantee you that I could outfit your home with similar products -- much of which could be bought at the local department or hardware store -- for far less.

They have a great spiel . . . and you probably hate to hear it Fredo . . . but their product is very much over-priced. If you ask around to many fire departments I am almost positive you will hear similar stories . . . that's the bad news. The good news is that their product while over-priced will do the job.

 

[firefighterjake]

Another topic near and dear to my heart . . . perhaps the only thing I am more interested in woodstoves is fire safety . . . it's my job . . . and I like doing the research about this kind of thing.

A lot of what members have said is pretty much true . . . reasons why a smoke detector may not activate could be the location in the home, type of detector (all smoke is not created equal -- the smoke molecule from a fast, flaming fire like a grease fire is different looking and causes different smoke detectors to activate at different rates from the smoke molecule of a fire that is slow and smoldering -- think electrical or a cigarette in a couch cushion), age of the detector (10 years or older and it's time to replace),etc.

Testing detectors . . . just testing a detector doesn't really do a whole lot. The truth is we've been telling folks to test their detectors monthly for year, but the reality is all you're doing in most cases when you press the test button is testing that the detector has power and the audible (or visual in some cases) alarm works. In most cases it does not test the sensor unit. You can purchase "canned smoke" to test the detector, but again . . . different molecules, different results.

For a long time the standard NFPA answer to the question of why did the detectors not activate in my home when it was full of smoke was that they should activate at some point . . . and you should have enough time to safely escape . . . even though the amount of smoke may seem great. For a long time photo-electric detectors were viewed as the red-headed and unreliable step child. HOwever, times and tech have changed and now most folks say for the best protection you should have some of both ion and PEs . . . or combo detectors (and being the guy to practice what I preach . . . that's what I have in my home.)

Interestingly enough there is a real difference in the different tech . . . when I burn something (like the pizza cheese that ruptured from the stuffed crust pizza the other night) filling the house with smoke, the ion smoke detector I have in our dining room did not activate . . . but the combo PE/Ion detector further down the hall went off. Again, I personally recommend having both types for maximum safety . . . even if the experts say having any detector is better than none at all . . . or having detectors but not having them connected or having them with MIA batteries (a very, very common problem.)

Incidentally, having your alarm go off should not be common . . . if you have a lot of false alarms you should consider moving the detector or replacing them with a different type. Here in Maine they now require PE detectors in apartments when located within X feet (20 I think off the top of my head) of kitchens or bathrooms (since steam molecules can fool ion detectors into thinking it is smoke.) The company mentioned by Fredo uses a lot of half truths in promoting their PE detectors over ion detectors by stating most folks' ion detectors (of which they are the most common ones out there) will fail to go off in a smoke filled room . . . again . . . the experts say they will go off in time, before the situation is not survivable . . . but I personally like the combination approach. In Vermont they had a fire where several children died and the detectors failed to activate . . . there was some debate at a NFPA conference where this story was related, but to make a long story short Vermont drafted legislation requiring PE detectors in homes . . . personally . . . again . . . I like the combination approach for best protection vs. favoring one tech over another due to the fact that different fires = different smoke.

Well, if you're actually still reading this and your eyes have not glazed over . . . today's detectors are pretty darn neat. They have neat features like wireless interconnectivity so if one goes off they all go off . . . they have long life lithium powered batteries so you don't have to change them once every year . . . they have the aforementioned combo detectors . . . many now have hush features for those times when you burn your pizza cheese and know it's a false alarm . . . they have some makes now that you can test them or silence them by using your TV remote (nice for grammy and those high cielings) . . . for young children who often do not respond to traditional alarms they have models that use voice warnings or you can even record your own warning to wake up your child. . .

Well, I suppose that's it for now . . . have I bored you silly?

 

[HollowHill]

Firefighterjake, I had no idea, thanks for the education!

 

[WellSeasoned]

Thanks for all that good info jake. I'm getting some detectors, so that info will help.

 

[bogydave]

One more reason this site is so helpful.
We get the Pro's opinions, knowledge, experience & expertise.
Thanks Jake
Great stuff!

 

[firefighterjake]

One more reason this site is so helpful.
We get the Pro's opinions, knowledge, experience & expertise.
Thanks Jake
Great stuff!

Never said I was a pro . . . but in fact I am . . . Certified Fire and Life Safety Educator with 16 years of experience.

I still can't believe a bunch of you guys actually wrote all that I wrote . . . even I bored myself.

 

[Fredo]

Firefighterjake, thanks for your response to my reply to ray. I was only trying to help ray and I hope I didn't cause any harm?


Fredo

 

[maverick06]

Jake,
I'm cheap but want a combo detector, do you have any specific recommendation?

 

[Fredo]

Rayg, I thought the information about MasterGuard Company that I mentioned could of helped you. I mentioned to you that detectors were pricey but at the time this is what my wife wanted for the safety for our children.

I hope that I did not mislead you or anyone else on Hearth.com and I am glad that firefighterjake was around to help out.

Fredo

 

[firefighterjake]

Firefighterjake, thanks for your response to my reply to ray. I was only trying to help ray and I hope I didn't cause any harm?


Fredo

No harm Fredo . . . I just have some issues with the way this company does business . . . they seem to use high pressure used car salesmen like tactics to sell folks over-priced product . . . it's all good and it works . . .

Best analogy is if I can convince you that my 1970s vintage woodstove is actually state of the art and better than all the other woodstoves currently on the market . . . and manipulate data by saying I can get longer burns than most of these other woodstoves . . . and convince you to pay a premium for this . . . well . . . it's the free market . . . and legal . . . of course what is missed if what I don't say or the facts I don't present or only give you part of the story.

 

[firefighterjake]

Jake,
I'm cheap but want a combo detector, do you have any specific recommendation?

I rarely recommend specific brands . . . they're all UL approved . . . or FM approved. I think I have a BRK (First Alert) combination . . . has a silencer that I can shut off manually or with a remote. There are a bunch of other good ones out there too though . . . I am kind of partial to the model I think First Alert puts out that is a dual model with the wireless interconnection.

 

[Shari]

Timely subject going on here as we just purchased two yesterday and I am still debating if they are the correct models. I recently realized our alarms were over 10 yrs. old - time to replace them. We are kind of sticklers in our household about having working smoke/fire detectors considering we lost a loved one when their house burned.

 

[BrotherBart]

Well, there is always the Redneck Smoke Detector.