Who Says Cat Stoves Do Not Offer A Fire Show?

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BKVP

Minister of Fire
Just to prove the point that we never know it all, last week I was in a showroom in Michigan. The dealer was speaking with a customer, so I sat to the side. The customer said he wanted a new stove, but not a catalytic stove because he had read on this site and others they did not offer a fire show.

The dealer said to the customer, "let's set both stoves at the same burn rate and see what you think."

That got me thinking (you can tell because smoke starts leaking out of my ears).

To those folks that often point out those catalytic wood stoves do not offer the fire show of a non catalytic wood stove; you might first set both units on the same burn rate before making that observation.

Non catalytic wood stoves, in order to pass tight emissions standards, offer a much smaller turn down rate, (The difference from high to low), than catalytic stoves. This difference is inherent in the way the two technologies differ. (I say differ, not one is better than the other!)

A catalyst treated combustor can become very effective (active) at around 550 degrees. This is why there is an inverse relationship between cat and non cat stoves in the realm of emissions. Catalytic designed stoves burn ultra clean on the lowest of burn rates. Non catalytic stoves burn cleanest on the highest of burn rates.

If you were to set both a non catalytic wood stove at 1.5 kg/hr and a catalytic wood stove at 1.5 kg/hr. you might be amazed to find they both provide a wonderful view or fire. However, if you set (based upon the wording on the label) a non catalytic wood stove to "low" and a catalytic wood stove to "low", there is a vast difference in the fire or view. That's because they two units differ in that a catalytic wood stove can pass tight standards and burn lower....and because in this case the two stoves are not burning at the same burn rate.

As the emissions standards tighten, and they will, the turn down rate for non catalytic wood stoves will continue to become smaller and smaller. The wording on the label will read "high" and "not so high".

The revival of the dual technology stoves (hybrid is the buzz word these days) takes advantage of the benefits of cat and non cat alike. To be clear, that is not to say they are ALWAYS cleaner burning and ALWAYS more efficient that just a plain good old PROVEN cat stove.

Your comments and observations as always are welcome...

And lest I forget, the dealer sold the customer a stove he will be very happy with...

Merry Christmas to one and all!
 
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I've said the same thing.... To me low on a non-cat the stove is running through fuel at close to the same rate as mine on med. On Med my cat stove has lots of flames. Heck even turned all the way down I get lots of wispy flames for hours on a full load.
 
I wish I could afford a Sirocco or Ashford to find out for myself, lol. I can't even see one burning in person, there's not a dealer in my area code even..I think there's one about 250 or so miles away, but their site doesn't mention BK so I'm not sure they even still carry them. I didn't bother asking because it's too far and it's not like I could buy one anyway!
 
To those folks that often point out those catalytic wood stoves do not offer the fire show of a non catalytic wood stove; you might first set both units on the same burn rate before making that observation.

I own both and will stand strong on my position that the cat stove does not offer the fireshow of a non-cat. It's just the way it is. The non-cat has a secondary air source that floods the roof of the firebox with fresh air and lights off in a fountain of pyro awesomeness. There is no such fireshow on a cat stove nomatter the air setting. The fireshow is really very impressive.

The second factor is that while a cat stove is capable of making flames, if the cat stove is properly sized and operated it will be spending the large majority of its life burning on low. At low settings we all seem to agree that little or no flame is present.

So the dealer just telling the buyer to turn both stoves on high was a sleazy trick and a bluff.

I fully agree with the rest of your post. Real, cat only, cat stoves are vastly superior heaters. Burn time is king!
 
Thank you....

1.5 kg//hr was not high burn...but rather medium-medium high. The dealer did not operate either stove on low or high. He did tell the customer the glass would get dirty on the low of the cat stove however, so I think he was quite honest.
 
I've ran both types, you can get some nice flames off a cat in the beginning, but its not going to last nearly as long a non-cat. I dont see the comparison in the long scheme of a full burn, as far as the light show is concerned.
 
A good point really, but I'd love to know how the dealer determined they were burning at the same rate. I think it is next to impossible to really get an apples to apples comparison.

With the FV I could get a nice fire show - but mind you I'm sure it is not the same fire show that a pure non-cat stove could give. It was much nicer than what I saw with my VC Encore NC. The FV show was generally a nice wall of flames on top or the slow whispy colorful flames dancing above the wood (lower burn rate).

Now, with the PH I do get a massive flame show (gates of hell) on top if I turn it up much. I imagine this is closer to the typical non-cat stove fire. Generally I aim for a slower burn in it, but will get some jets on top for the first 1/3-1/2 of the burn time anyway.

In general though I think that if someone wants a huge 'fireball in a box' flame show, there isn't likely to be much of a substitute for injecting hot air to the top of the stove. If, on the other hand, you like to see light dancing flames for hours on end the pure cat (like FV) may satisfy you. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder eh?
 
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I wish I could afford a Sirocco or Ashford to find out for myself, lol. I can't even see one burning in person, there's not a dealer in my area code even..I think there's one about 250 or so miles away, but their site doesn't mention BK so I'm not sure they even still carry them. I didn't bother asking because it's too far and it's not like I could buy one anyway!

Williamson Hardware in Wayne County sells BK's ,but I don't think i have ever seen one burning there.
If you ever want to see a King in action let me now..I'm in Brockport ,can't be too far from ya. Cheers!
 
I do get some neat fire shows if I adjust the air just right,for sure when the stove is hotter.
I have found at night when watching tv if I add a little air I can have small flames off the wood and some wispy ones coming off the cat.
 
Thank you....

1.5 kg//hr was not high burn...but rather medium-medium high. The dealer did not operate either stove on low or high. He did tell the customer the glass would get dirty on the low of the cat stove however, so I think he was quite honest.

The part that wasn't mentioned is a BK will have flames to start, once the stove heats up even on a medium burn rate the t-stat will close the flapper and you'll lose the flames. A simple show room demo will show flames but they will go out if you burn at that rate longer than a simple demo. I consider "2" a medium burn rate and I'll lose the flames after about a 30-45 minute warm up on that setting. I will get occasional fare ups as the t-stat opens and closes the flapper as needed to control the heat. Sure I could burn hot enough to have flames but that's just a complete waste of fuel in my eyes.

I will echo the same as Highbeam, I've owned both and the light show in the non cat was superior.(of course the burn time/rate was terrible) As you said the low burn rate on a non cat is much higher than a cat stove. My non cat burned through a bunch more wood than my BK due to the complete lack of control I had with my non cat.

Blaze King is the King of wood stoves as far as I'm concerned when a person is looking for a serious 24/7 burner. There are a lot of stoves on the market that pique my interest, the only ones that stand a chance of knocking the Princess out would be your King or Ashford. :cool:
 
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I haven't studied this in great detail as I can usually get enough heat burning low, but it seems to me that if I have the air on a cat stove open too much, not all the smoke gets burned. I've read that the cat needs time (lower air setting) to catch and burn the smoke as cleanly as it can.
 
I haven't studied this in great detail as I can usually get enough heat burning low, but it seems to me that if I have the air on a cat stove open too much, not all the smoke gets burned. I've read that the cat needs time (lower air setting) to catch and burn the smoke as cleanly as it can.
Well into the burn having flame is not going to destroy planet earth.
Just the fact that there is flame means the gasses are being burnt.
Now if we could just do something about the emissions from cows! lol.
 
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Cows are bad, termites are terrible.
 
I've burned them all and prefer the fire show of my Keystone as well as the no flame but visible glowing cat. The tube stove non cat fires look like a gas grill at times. I'm more into those slow lazy floating flames a Woodstock provides.
 
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We have a cat stove, although I have run both types, I can say for sure that I prefer non cat. I have far less trouble getting a fire going, and I could stare at the fire for hours. Not so with a cat stove, It takes me forever to build a decent fire, and then after it's dialed in and cruising there is barely any flame, and the glass gets black. I do like being able to shut a cat stove down lower, ours can be shut down almost completely if necessary, and having a clean low burn for overnight.
 
I have to admit my stove back puffs sometimes...without releasing plumes of smoke in the house. It is actually quiet entrancing to watch. Plus you can see the cat glow in the back and it looks like the fires of hell blazing in the combustion chamber with a pretty shell design covering it :p



I hope no-one thinks I am reposting this boring video for views... it just is kind of pretty to watch and I love the glow of the cat in the background.
 
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I have to admit my stove back puffs sometimes...without releasing plumes of smoke in the house. It is actually quiet entrancing to watch. Plus you can see the cat glow in the back and it looks like the fires of hell blazing in the combustion chamber with a pretty shell design covering it :p



I hope no-one thinks I am reposting this boring video for views... it just is kind of pretty to watch and I love the glow of the cat in the background.

^Thats my favorite type of burn^.
 
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ive seen hundreds of stoves burn over the years and non cats are always pretty to watch .but i prefer the the steady even heat over the whole burn cycle .I guess the perfect set up would be one of each.One to show and one to glow.
>>
 
We have a cat stove, although I have run both types, I can say for sure that I prefer non cat. I have far less trouble getting a fire going, and I could stare at the fire for hours. Not so with a cat stove, It takes me forever to build a decent fire, and then after it's dialed in and cruising there is barely any flame, and the glass gets black. I do like being able to shut a cat stove down lower, ours can be shut down almost completely if necessary, and having a clean low burn for overnight.
I don't understand why you have trouble getting the fire going in cat stove. Getting a fire going shouldn't be any different in the cat stove. Have you tried leaving the door cracked for a little while? Or maybe you are closing the bypass too soon?
 
I don't understand why you have trouble getting the fire going in cat stove. Getting a fire going shouldn't be any different in the cat stove. Have you tried leaving the door cracked for a little while? Or maybe you are closing the bypass too soon?

Yeah, that's not a stove problem....
 
I've burned them all and prefer the fire show of my Keystone as well as the no flame but visible glowing cat. The tube stove non cat fires look like a gas grill at times. I'm more into those slow lazy floating flames a Woodstock provides.
Yeah, it's nice to look from across the room and see the cat glowing; At least there is something going on, not just a black box. >>
 
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I have to admit my stove back puffs sometimes...without releasing plumes of smoke in the house. It is actually quiet entrancing to watch. Plus you can see the cat glow in the back and it looks like the fires of hell blazing in the combustion chamber with a pretty shell design covering it :p



I hope no-one thinks I am reposting this boring video for views... it just is kind of pretty to watch and I love the glow of the cat in the background.

Nice clean glass and light show. Same for Todd's Keystone. Here's a BKK burning black cherry at a 2 setting.
 
IDK, I think I really like my non-cat action that I get.... image.jpg
 
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Looks purty!
 
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