Will it be ok if i do this?
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Grisu
Minister of Fire
I asked for the fuel consumption of your furnace during one winter to get an idea how much of a heating load you have and whether one bigger stove will be sufficient.
The minimum height of the fireplace opening from the hearth for the stoves is:
Quadrafire Isle Royale: 30"
Hearthstone Manchester 29"
Woodstock Progress: 26" (short leg kit), Woodstock Ideal Steel: 28" (short legs)
I am pretty sure both Jotuls need more than 30" but you can check the manuals or ask a Jotul dealer.
So you have a few choices although I would measure twice if you are considering the Isle Royale. If you prefer a cat stove, the Woodstocks are your best candidates and the Ideal Steel has great introductory pricing right now. Great company making quality stoves so really no downgrade compared with the Super. But let me add that your main problem seems to be getting more heat which means you would run a cat stove on high most of the time. Don't expect the long burn times other people report here from their cat stoves as you probably will need to dial the air up more. Then there will be not much benefit compared with a non-cat stove except for the shoulder season. I would also take a look at the other stoves and not just exclude them because they have no cat.
The minimum height of the fireplace opening from the hearth for the stoves is:
Quadrafire Isle Royale: 30"
Hearthstone Manchester 29"
Woodstock Progress: 26" (short leg kit), Woodstock Ideal Steel: 28" (short legs)
I am pretty sure both Jotuls need more than 30" but you can check the manuals or ask a Jotul dealer.
So you have a few choices although I would measure twice if you are considering the Isle Royale. If you prefer a cat stove, the Woodstocks are your best candidates and the Ideal Steel has great introductory pricing right now. Great company making quality stoves so really no downgrade compared with the Super. But let me add that your main problem seems to be getting more heat which means you would run a cat stove on high most of the time. Don't expect the long burn times other people report here from their cat stoves as you probably will need to dial the air up more. Then there will be not much benefit compared with a non-cat stove except for the shoulder season. I would also take a look at the other stoves and not just exclude them because they have no cat.
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I can say this from experience I have 2 - 45's right off the top of my BK. But I also have 20' of class A sitting on top of my 6' of DBL wall stove pipe.
Hogwildz
Minister of Fire
I'd be tearing the zero out, then making it so either an insert or stove could go in there. The zero is junk and useless.
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I totally agree with hogwildz id stop messing with that crappy builders box at all tear it out make an alcove of some sort and install a stove right.
sorry grisu, i must of misread, i would have to dig out some old gas bills. Anyways, i appreciate yours and everybody elses input. So much to consider. I love to tear out and make a alcove idea, but that might have to be a next year project. Lots to consider, as always you guys are the best.
becasunshine
Minister of Fire
Also, insulate that attic. Look up some of .gov's web sites on recommendations for sealing leaks from the living space of the house into the attic while you are at it. Putting adequate insulation in the attic and sealing the penetrations from the ceiling of the living space into the attic made a HUGE difference for us, and we heat this particular house with a pellet stove at one end.
stoveguy2esw
Minister of Fire
ok, first off, this is a mess waiting to happen on several fronts.
first off , you CANNOT legally install an insert into a ZC fireplace unless the insert is UL listed for the application. a ZC is not the same animal as a traditional brick and mortar fireplace.
next the flue , the flue system if its a lined masonry flue then you aren't in too bad a shape, however if its a pre-manufactured flue system for the ZC (meaning its not a brick and mortar chimney but a pipe chimney inside of a chase) then the flue system is likely a UL103 1700F rated AIR COOLED chimney system which is the norm for a ZC
this system is NOT rated for an EPA woodstove or insert you would need a UL 103 HT (and the HT is important) 2100F rated class A flue system which is an insulated rather than air cooled system
see the flue system in a ZC is designed to cool itself convectively as the ZC wastes an enormous amount of heat up the flue, where a modern woodstove does not waste all that heat and thus needs a flue system which will TRAP that heat to maintain proper draft and flue temperatures.
homeowners insurance;
if you do not install the new unit to the proper code requirements your homeowners will simply not cover you , or if they do not know you have done so and there is a problem which causes them to do an inspection and they find you have done this improperly they will not honor your claim.
now, im not beating on you , my job is to ensure you as the homeowner have a SAFE and enjoyable woodburning experience when you invite fire into you're house , you SIMPLY HAVE TO DO IT RIGHT. there is far too much at stake to take shortcuts. please do your due diligence. have a reputable certified chimney pro advise you. heed the advice of the professionals who are gracious enough to offer their expertise in here.
again, I just want you to be safe my friend.
first off , you CANNOT legally install an insert into a ZC fireplace unless the insert is UL listed for the application. a ZC is not the same animal as a traditional brick and mortar fireplace.
next the flue , the flue system if its a lined masonry flue then you aren't in too bad a shape, however if its a pre-manufactured flue system for the ZC (meaning its not a brick and mortar chimney but a pipe chimney inside of a chase) then the flue system is likely a UL103 1700F rated AIR COOLED chimney system which is the norm for a ZC
this system is NOT rated for an EPA woodstove or insert you would need a UL 103 HT (and the HT is important) 2100F rated class A flue system which is an insulated rather than air cooled system
see the flue system in a ZC is designed to cool itself convectively as the ZC wastes an enormous amount of heat up the flue, where a modern woodstove does not waste all that heat and thus needs a flue system which will TRAP that heat to maintain proper draft and flue temperatures.
homeowners insurance;
if you do not install the new unit to the proper code requirements your homeowners will simply not cover you , or if they do not know you have done so and there is a problem which causes them to do an inspection and they find you have done this improperly they will not honor your claim.
now, im not beating on you , my job is to ensure you as the homeowner have a SAFE and enjoyable woodburning experience when you invite fire into you're house , you SIMPLY HAVE TO DO IT RIGHT. there is far too much at stake to take shortcuts. please do your due diligence. have a reputable certified chimney pro advise you. heed the advice of the professionals who are gracious enough to offer their expertise in here.
again, I just want you to be safe my friend.
Thankyou stove guy finally someone who understands the issues with inserts in zc units. Every time i say what you said (albeit not as well) i get allot of crap from lots of guys here. Very well said
stoveguy2esw
Minister of Fire
hey, i'd rather be fussed at and right than read a post about the aftermath of a bad install gone wrong.
I try really hard to be firm while making it clear that im not scolding or making light of a question asked in good faith. I also have spent a crap-ton of hours studying code. if I didn't share it , it would be a complete waste to learn it.
education my friend and the understanding that its not just the stove you have to research.
actually to the OP, check with Regency ( a manufacturer) strikes me I read somewhere that they have an insert that is ZC rated. I do not remember much about it but seems I googled and found it several years ago. if they do make one , check in with them and find out what the flue requirements are. you may have to reline with an insulated liner instead of a plain flex liner to do it due to the heat loss from the air cooled flue system if you don't have a masonry chimney
Yes we are a regency dealer and they are zc rated but i will still not do it due to the fact that the zc unit is not rated for an insert and many times specifically says not to use any non approved accessories with the unit. I have also seen many zc units that specifically say no inserts as well. And yes i have studied code as well and i am a csia certified sweep and the fact that csia recommends against inserts in zc units is another good reason not to do it.
stoveguy2esw
Minister of Fire
ohh kool! I wasn't on drugs about the ZC rated regency. still you have a point about the UL listing of the ZC. what im curious about is what does Regency ask for in relation to the flue? does it require a reline with an insulated liner? do they need any added clearances in the flue? wonder as well about load bearing. most ZC's are usually supported on a wood frame work wonder how much effort would be put into ensuring the load bearing structure could support the added weight?
this my friend is why you study, to catch the things that most folks (homeowners who aren't in the industry and wouldn't have a reason to think about it) don't catch.
we need to sit down and have a beer one of these days
This is the official response I got back from CSIA when asked about their stance:
"The listing for the insert is global and suggests that it was not specifically tested in that fireplace. There are many liability issues associated with this type of installation that CSIA does not wish to embrace at this time."
Not a firm stance, this sounds more like a legal cover. It seems to me that no major stove maker would be allowing for inserts to be installed in ZCs if they felt this was a serious liability. This has been hashed, rehashed and refried a lot lately. If weight is a concern, shim up the floor.
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/is-it-safe-to-put-an-insert-in-a-zero-clearance-or-not.122119/
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/installing-a-wood-insert-into-heatilator-mark-123.128429/
"The listing for the insert is global and suggests that it was not specifically tested in that fireplace. There are many liability issues associated with this type of installation that CSIA does not wish to embrace at this time."
Not a firm stance, this sounds more like a legal cover. It seems to me that no major stove maker would be allowing for inserts to be installed in ZCs if they felt this was a serious liability. This has been hashed, rehashed and refried a lot lately. If weight is a concern, shim up the floor.
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/is-it-safe-to-put-an-insert-in-a-zero-clearance-or-not.122119/
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/installing-a-wood-insert-into-heatilator-mark-123.128429/
Grisu
Minister of Fire
Let me also add that this thread has become obsolete as the OP will leave his (ZC-approved) Super insert in there until he can tear it out to put in its place an alcove with stove.
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/can-i-put-a-block-of-plate-in-a-zc-unit.129429/#post-1743030
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/can-i-put-a-block-of-plate-in-a-zc-unit.129429/#post-1743030
ok, you guys got me scared here, and my heart dropped reading this, did my installer do something and sold me something illegal for my use???? am i gonna burn my house down, what am i supposed to do here???? am I ok with my setup or not???
stoveguy2esw
Minister of Fire
didn't search to see if the guy had other threads working, just came upon this one and offered the best advice I could for the situation.
and shimming up the floor is not going to help the fabricated hearth most of these things sit on , they usually are raised hearths built from wood framing with an application over it to give the fireplace look. if the hearth collapses under the weight (above the floor) the flue could tear loose and a real mess could happen.
never ever take shortcuts when dealing with fire
and shimming up the floor is not going to help the fabricated hearth most of these things sit on , they usually are raised hearths built from wood framing with an application over it to give the fireplace look. if the hearth collapses under the weight (above the floor) the flue could tear loose and a real mess could happen.
never ever take shortcuts when dealing with fire
I feel that it is almost always pretty clearly against code but many others feel differently. But i do know that if the instructions for your zc unit say no inserts or non approved accessories it should never have been done. And begreen that statement is pretty clear to me as a professional they feel the liability is to great to do it.
Also by shimming the floor and bridging that air space you are creating a heat transfer point where there was not one before. By doing so you are further modifying the original unit and to me it is yet another problem
C'mon bh. Prior to the install of the insert that ZC firebox would have live hot coats on the firebox floor. That is a magnitude greater amount of heat transfer than an non-combustible support like cement board or brick.
Yes but for much shorter periods of time. To me it is not worth the risk because as a professional if i install something that is not following all of the applicable instructions and codes and something happens it is my ass on the line. Not to mention the potential risk of life and property of my customer who is paying me to do things as safely as possible. And every little modification you make to that original design of the zc unit is just one more spot that could get you in trouble.
stoveguy2esw
Minister of Fire
i'd have to see it bro. Bholler is a CSIA certified sweep and thus is more qualified than I am to give proper advice on the situation.
as it stands I did not know this was an "ex post facto" thread until just now. I should tell you that in my capacity I tend to be "mother hen 'ish" in that I try really hard to err on the side of caution.
if the unit is rated for ZC installation you are probably not illegal, but I'd like to know about the "unknowns" like what this ZC system entails, is it a typical ZC install with a framed hearth? if so do you have access to see how structurally strong it is?
is the flue system integral with the ZC? meaning air cooled?
did the installer reline the flue? if so what kind of liner? is it insulated?
also I note my friend Grisu mentioned you had plans to tear out and do an alcove install is the stove a freestanding unit on the hearth or a full blown insert install? is this in the future plans?
I should note that this apparently was a professional installation , I assume from this that the unit is rated for ZC. if so and the fireplace and its underworks so to speak can support the weight you are probably fine and I suspect legal.
I didn't mean to scare you I just wanted to make sure that everything was done properly and safely. I thought not knowing the stove was in place you were exploring the idea and wanted to make sure that you did it properly. there are very few wood inserts you can legally put in a ZC , the super apparently is one which has the listing for it as long as the ZC is not altered (which voids the listing whether its done by you or an installer no matter how many certs he has)
stoveguy2esw
Minister of Fire
it aint the heat IMHO , its the ability to support the unit. how heavy is the super? is the ZC floor made to hold the weight?
I can't name an incidence of floor failure reported here with any ZC install. Can you with any NC13i?
edit: Belay that, not approved for ZC installs.
edit: Belay that, not approved for ZC installs.
Yeah without seeing it looking at the specs of all of the involved components and your local code there is no way for us to know for sure if it is to code or not. But i can tell you that i would not have done it and any certified sweep following csia recommendations would not have done it.
According to the ul listing a zc unit only needs to support 100 lbs per sqft. An insert fully loaded with wood will be pushing that pretty far
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