Woodstock Progress video

[ddddddden]

Well, technically, efficiency is what conserves wood, not necesrariy burn time. In comparing stoves that are the same size and equally efficient, the one with a longer burn time simply lets you spread out the release of the BTU's. The amount of heat you get is the same. This argument was well aired in the BK Wars. While fundamentally correct, I think this argument misses some of the nuance of operating a wood stove. Both stoves would release the same amount of BTU's from a load of wood, but, IMO, the stove that releases them in a less controlled manner tends to waste heat, because most houses do not retain heat perfectly. Then there's the wrinkle of the longer burning stoves tending to have lower exhaust temps, so more heat is staying in the house. Anyhow, yeah, I think you would save wood with longer burns, but some folks will tell you that you only save wood because you get less heat.

 

[pen]

It just seem like the only thing we see is a fully involved fire. You ain't gonna save a thing burning like that.

It didn't burn like that all the time. That's simply when most of the pics were taken because it was very cool. When turned down it looked like typical secondary action coming through that big top baffle / secondary air ports. Because of the steepness of the baffle, the action was different than I had seen before. Pretty awesome.

Even at a high rate of burn, I couldn't believe how cool the flue temps were. If too much was going up the stack, I would have expected to see the pipe measuring more than 325 at about 6 inches up externally.

pen

 

[Slow1]

It just seem like the only thing we see is a fully involved fire. You ain't gonna save a thing burning like that.

It didn't burn like that all the time. That's simply when most of the pics were taken because it was very cool. When turned down it looked like typical secondary action coming through that big top baffle / secondary air ports. Because of the steepness of the baffle, the action was different than I had seen before. Pretty awesome.

Even at a high rate of burn, I couldn't believe how cool the flue temps were. If too much was going up the stack, I would have expected to see the pipe measuring more than 325 at about 6 inches up externally.

pen

I have a video of it in slow burn... but frankly it isn't much to look at as what came out was essentially a dark stove with the glass reflecting people walking around talking about whatever. Again, the impressive thing was how quickly it could be dialed down from massive flames to this glowing dark mass and back again. I wish that there could have been some way to see the smoke stack during this process to see how clean the burn was - we were left to assume/trust that it remained clean throughout.

I agree, not going to save much wood burning in 'gates of hell' mode. However, I sure would like to be able to throw that much heat once in a while when needed. Come home on a cold day after being away for a while and house isn't up to temp... maybe have it blast the heat and drink some hot beverage while basking in the glow. I feel sleepy already I don't think any of us own a stove purely for efficient burning eh?

 

[Todd]

Woodstock claimes the PH has the greatest range of BTU output of any EPA approved stove, something like 10,000- 80,000 BTU, that's huge! That lower output is the same as the Fireview and it can go 12+ hours. I don't know the math but a full PH fire box putting out 10,000 BTU's should last a long time and be great for those shoulder season burns. When it's colder turn it up into the non cat mode for more output, best of both worlds.

 

[RAPhomme]

After watching this stove just ratchet up and respond to every little twitch of the air control, and never seeing the chimney pipe get over 325 although the stove was really cranking, I really don't think a thermostat would do a whole heck of a lot more for an operator.

pen

But fires, even low ones, still have their output curves: higher gas output at the start, then lower, shifting as the logs shift and expose new surfaces, etc. Also my understanding that adjusting the damper, opening the door to reload, etc.--each little change to the firebox environment--importantly changes the fuel/air mix. Attending to that mix, and keeping it from being too suddenly or frequently enriched or starved, seems like an underrated aspect of efficient fire-burning. And a thermostat's most important job, I think, is to reduce the adjustment trauma to the mix--in other words, to keep the operator's hands off the damper.

So it's possible that in a stove as apparently responsive as the Progress, a thermostat would be more rather than less useful.

 

[pen]

After watching this stove just ratchet up and respond to every little twitch of the air control, and never seeing the chimney pipe get over 325 although the stove was really cranking, I really don't think a thermostat would do a whole heck of a lot more for an operator.

pen

But fires, even low ones, still have their output curves: higher gas output at the start, then lower, shifting as the logs shift and expose new surfaces, etc. Also my understanding that adjusting the damper, opening the door to reload, etc.--each little change to the firebox environment--importantly changes the fuel/air mix. Attending to that mix, and keeping it from being too suddenly or frequently enriched or starved, seems like an underrated aspect of efficient fire-burning. And a thermostat's most important job, I think, is to reduce the adjustment trauma to the mix--in other words, to keep the operator's hands off the damper.

So it's possible that in a stove as apparently responsive as the Progress, a thermostat would be more rather than less useful.

The beauty of soapstone is that if you run it a bit too hard you aren't going to immediately overheat things as the soapstone will help retain the heat and release it over time.

At the end of the day though, they designed it the way they designed it. I really think you are overthinking this. If you just plain want a thermostat on the stove you are picking out, buy one which has the darn thing.

pen

 

[RAPhomme]

Woodstock claimes the PH has the greatest range of BTU output of any EPA approved stove, something like 10,000- 80,000 BTU, that's huge! That lower output is the same as the Fireview and it can go 12+ hours. I don't know the math but a full PH fire box putting out 10,000 BTU's should last a long time and be great for those shoulder season burns. When it's colder turn it up into the non cat mode for more output, best of both worlds.

Though I'm still not clear on what inferences can be drawn from EPA output about real-world output. BK King has EPA 8,600/37,800; and real-world 8,400/90,000, with 47,000 as a sustainable higher burn. Equinox has EPA 12,000/37,900; real-world 120,000 max and 62,675 for 8-hour-burn (according to http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/wscompha.htm).

Progress' EPA and real-world maxes (75K/80k) seem closer than many others'. Does that imply greater sensitivity of output (i.e. dialing the output up or down the scale easily)? Or that that it's really good at providing tons of forced air at max output (seriously fanning the flames)? Or just that it's really good at burning test-fuel cribs of Douglas Fir? Or that it makes a difference that the Progress, with its 2.8 cf firebox, gets to burn both 2x4s and 4x4s in the test?

7.1.4.2 If the usable firebox volume is greater than
0.043 m3 (1.5 ft3) and less than or equal to 0.085 m3 (3.0
ft3), use 2 × 4 and 4 × 4 lumber. About half the weight of
the test fuel charge shall be 2 × 4 lumber, and the
remainder shall be 4 × 4 lumber.
7.1.4.3 If the usable firebox volume is greater than
0.085 m3 (3.0 ft3), use 4 × 4 lumber.

Seems unlikely--but would be nice to learn from someone who really knows the science involved.

 

[RAPhomme]

After watching this stove just ratchet up and respond to every little twitch of the air control, and never seeing the chimney pipe get over 325 although the stove was really cranking, I really don't think a thermostat would do a whole heck of a lot more for an operator.

pen

But fires, even low ones, still have their output curves: higher gas output at the start, then lower, shifting as the logs shift and expose new surfaces, etc. Also my understanding that adjusting the damper, opening the door to reload, etc.--each little change to the firebox environment--importantly changes the fuel/air mix. Attending to that mix, and keeping it from being too suddenly or frequently enriched or starved, seems like an underrated aspect of efficient fire-burning. And a thermostat's most important job, I think, is to reduce the adjustment trauma to the mix--in other words, to keep the operator's hands off the damper.

So it's possible that in a stove as apparently responsive as the Progress, a thermostat would be more rather than less useful.

The beauty of soapstone is that if you run it a bit too hard you aren't going to immediately overheat things as the soapstone will help retain the heat and release it over time.

At the end of the day though, they designed it the way they designed it. I really think you are overthinking this. If you just plain want a thermostat on the stove you are picking out, buy one which has the darn thing.

pen

Overthinking? Never! But I would be interested to learn just what a thermostat is supposed to do, since some knowledgeable people seem to doubt its efficacy and others swear by it. And I am pretty sure there are non-obvious factors to good stove management that it would be useful for anyone to know.

 

[fire_man]

Woodstock claimes the PH has the greatest range of BTU output of any EPA approved stove, something like 10,000- 80,000 BTU, that's huge! That lower output is the same as the Fireview and it can go 12+ hours. I don't know the math but a full PH fire box putting out 10,000 BTU's should last a long time and be great for those shoulder season burns. When it's colder turn it up into the non cat mode for more output, best of both worlds.

Todd: Where are you getting the lower number for the FV = 10K? WS told me it was 5K while I was up there last weekend.

 

[My Oslo heats my home]

I have learned that the thermostat, like a moisture meter, is a learning tool with numbers on it. Over the years I have learned how to burn with those tools and have come to not being as dependent today on them as I did a few years ago. Timing, what I see the fire doing and quality of the wood is getting me there now.

 

[Todd]

Woodstock claimes the PH has the greatest range of BTU output of any EPA approved stove, something like 10,000- 80,000 BTU, that's huge! That lower output is the same as the Fireview and it can go 12+ hours. I don't know the math but a full PH fire box putting out 10,000 BTU's should last a long time and be great for those shoulder season burns. When it's colder turn it up into the non cat mode for more output, best of both worlds.

Todd: Where are you getting the lower number for the FV = 10K? WS told me it was 5K while I was up there last weekend.

I took it from their web site. Click on the Fireview and it will take you to the stats but they are EPA test method so there could be a difference?

 

[Todd]

Woodstock claimes the PH has the greatest range of BTU output of any EPA approved stove, something like 10,000- 80,000 BTU, that's huge! That lower output is the same as the Fireview and it can go 12+ hours. I don't know the math but a full PH fire box putting out 10,000 BTU's should last a long time and be great for those shoulder season burns. When it's colder turn it up into the non cat mode for more output, best of both worlds.

Though I'm still not clear on what inferences can be drawn from EPA output about real-world output. BK King has EPA 8,600/37,800; and real-world 8,400/90,000, with 47,000 as a sustainable higher burn. Equinox has EPA 12,000/37,900; real-world 120,000 max and 62,675 for 8-hour-burn (according to http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/wscompha.htm).

Progress' EPA and real-world maxes (75K/80k) seem closer than many others'. Does that imply greater sensitivity of output (i.e. dialing the output up or down the scale easily)? Or that that it's really good at providing tons of forced air at max output (seriously fanning the flames)? Or just that it's really good at burning test-fuel cribs of Douglas Fir? Or that it makes a difference that the Progress, with its 2.8 cf firebox, gets to burn both 2x4s and 4x4s in the test?

7.1.4.2 If the usable firebox volume is greater than
0.043 m3 (1.5 ft3) and less than or equal to 0.085 m3 (3.0
ft3), use 2 × 4 and 4 × 4 lumber. About half the weight of
the test fuel charge shall be 2 × 4 lumber, and the
remainder shall be 4 × 4 lumber.
7.1.4.3 If the usable firebox volume is greater than
0.085 m3 (3.0 ft3), use 4 × 4 lumber.

Seems unlikely--but would be nice to learn from someone who really knows the science involved.

All they are claiming is the EPA test. Who knows what real world could be, so many variables? Manufactures can retest in their own labs until they get what they want and make the numbers more attractive to buyers. At least the EPA test is pretty much standard ops for everyone. Sounds like the owner (Tom) isn't one of those exaggerated numbers guys and just wants to sell his stoves with conservative reliable facts and great service.

 

[raybonz]

I'm sure the woodstock folks are keeping an eye on the PH threads. It is definitely a game changer for sure. Question I have is how do you attract non cat burners (like me) to buy this stove?

Simple go see it burn in person! Pictures don't do it justice Oslo.. I was impressed at the overall quality in materials and workmanship..The people that took pride in their work and they care about their customers.. The fireshow and range of heat needs to be experienced and then you can feel the heat it produces.. After my visit I walked away knowing I would have no issue buying a Woodstock..

Ray

 

[RIDGERUNNER30]

I hope the stove is a big hit for wood stock, I own a fire view and love everything about it, I like to see USA based company building there stoves right here in the good old USA.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

Hello all. This is my first post for over a week as we got home late last night. At Woodstock we had a grand time. I'll post more as time goes and hopefully a few pictures and/or videos.

I'll start with Todd's question about the size. Although Slow1 did not seem impressed by the size difference, to me and to most folks there, the Fireview just looked so darned small next to the Progress that it seemed that the Fireview was not even near in class. For sure when the fires were turned up, the Progress really looked much more impressive. Most of the time I checked the temperatures of the Progress it was burning between 500 and 650 degrees with the flue temperature between 300 and 325.

I was struck by how much heat came out the front of this stove. As you moved to the side you did not feel as much heat but still had heat. My wife one time touched the heat shield in the rear of the stove when the stove was burning at about 670 and she was amazed that the heat shield was not hot. It probably would have left a burn had she put pressure on but was just touching it lightly and no harm was done. At one point, Tom and I were sitting in front of the stove when some folks walked up behind us. It was obvious that they were looking to buy a stove but I don't remember who the sales person was. Anyway, I nudged Tom and told him about the folks behind us and suggested he just get up and turn the draft down a bit to change the flame. He did and the flame changed immediately. The firebox went from looking like the Pits of Hell all over and the flame just lifted up to the top of the firebox very similar to what the Fireview does. I truly believe one or two stoves were sold right then! The Oh's and Ah's were really sounding out and they loved it.

There have been many changes from the Classic, Fireview and Keystone but all very positive changes. The pictures you will be seeing and the videos too can not do it justice. It really has to be seen to believe. My wife and I are very happy with our Fireview......but, I did put a deposit on the new Progress stove. The thought too is that we will decrease our wood needs even further with this stove over the Fireview and we have already cut our wood needs in half! Time will tell.

Happy to be back.

 

[Todd]

Good to see you back Dennis, looking forward to more pictures and info. What's next at Woodstock?

 

[Backwoods Savage]

Thanks Todd. There are many new things in the works at Woodstock but I'm not sure just how much should be let out at this time. I will answer a few questions when I find that thread where I asked for questions to ask Woodstock. I heard there were some questions posted while we were on the road. I'm slow, but I'll get caught up soon....I hope.

 

[rdust]

Welcome back Dennis! Glad to hear you're buy a big honkin' steel stove! :lol: Are you going to start cutting your wood at 22" so you can use the extra space of the PH?

 

[Backwoods Savage]

Thanks rdust. I can't even lift one side of that big rock! Even the top lid is 1 1/4" of solid soapstone. Heavy bugger it is.

 

[My Oslo heats my home]

There have been many changes from the Classic, Fireview and Keystone but all very positive changes. The pictures you will be seeing and the videos too can not do it justice. It really has to be seen to believe. My wife and I are very happy with our Fireview......but, I did put a deposit on the new Progress stove. The thought too is that we will decrease our wood needs even further with this stove over the Fireview and we have already cut our wood needs in half! Time will tell.

Happy to be back.

Glad to see you back Dennis, and yes the forum has had many threads going while you were away, all very positive Q&A type posts. I'm going to comment on your last portion of your post, fuel consumption. After a few days of going back and forth with a few members this ended up being one of the biggest items for me. The long controlled burn times of the progress, less reloads and what seems to be less overall work for the woodburner. Both the cat and secondary burn tubes work together and create such a cool flue temp, no smoke and less buildup. very nice...

so have you posted your FV for sale yet?

 

[Backwoods Savage]

Haven't yet put the Fireview up for sale. Holy cow, we just got home! Will keep you posted though but to be completely honest, we still are unsure about our needs for this winter after all the remodeling has finally been completed, or at least that part which will be affected for heating purposes. If it turns out that the Progress will be too large then we'll keep the Fireview. But I am really impressed with this new stove and that is why I could not leave without putting down a deposit.

 

[firefighterjake]

I'm sure the woodstock folks are keeping an eye on the PH threads. It is definitely a game changer for sure. Question I have is how do you attract non cat burners (like me) to buy this stove?

Simple go see it burn in person! Pictures don't do it justice Oslo.. I was impressed at the overall quality in materials and workmanship..The people that took pride in their work and they care about their customers.. The fireshow and range of heat needs to be experienced and then you can feel the heat it produces.. After my visit I walked away knowing I would have no issue buying a Woodstock..

Ray

Ditto!

 

[My Oslo heats my home]

Haven't yet put the Fireview up for sale. Holy cow, we just got home! Will keep you posted though but to be completely honest, we still are unsure about our needs for this winter after all the remodeling has finally been completed, or at least that part which will be affected for heating purposes. If it turns out that the Progress will be too large then we'll keep the Fireview. But I am really impressed with this new stove and that is why I could not leave without putting down a deposit.

Dennis, You are one of the biggest "go to guys" on the forum. You say what you feel and most of the members will respect your years of experience.

I'm a few years away from upgrading although with the news out of the latest Woodstock open house I will surely keep an eye on what comes out of the hybrid. It's as if the Progress is a step above the rest, using two secondary units to improve the air quality and exiting temperatures. I'm slowly but surely leaning in the same direction. They may have to open up a second plant just to make these stoves to keep up with demand. maybe not...

 

[Battenkiller]

They may have to open up a second plant just to make these stoves to keep up with demand. maybe not...

One of the workers told me they could produce about 60/week and are currently at about 40/week or so (if I'm remembering correctly). That leaves room for only 1000 more stoves a year unless they ramp up their operation there. If this new stove really takes off, maybe it will force their hand into building a second plant. Not sure how eager they'd be to do that after just burning their mortgage last year. If it was my place I'd just hit max capacity and then bump the price up over time and reap in the extra profits.

Uh... not that they should listen to anything I say. :shut:

 

[BrowningBAR]

They may have to open up a second plant just to make these stoves to keep up with demand. maybe not...

One of the workers told me they could produce about 60/week and are currently at about 40/week or so (if I'm remembering correctly). That leaves room for only 1000 more stoves a year unless they ramp up their operation there. If this new stove really takes off, maybe it will force their hand into building a second plant. Not sure how eager they'd be to do that after just burning their mortgage last year. If it was my place I'd just hit max capacity and then bump the price up over time and reap in the extra profits.

Uh... not that they should listen to anything I say. :shut:

I wonder if the 60 per week is based on man power or facility space?