Trailer Winch battery

[jetsam]

No, a 12v charge controller. Commonly used by people with solar/wind/hydro power to keep their batteries from cooking. They get very fancy, but you can also go simple.
http:// https://www.amazon.com/dp/B007VLMRP2/
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B007VLMRP2/

That's a fairly random sample; not endorsing that particular one.

 

[coaly]

Yeah, that would be ideal. But in this case the battery and all circuitry must be on trailer, and I don't want to modify the wiring of every truck I might ever use to pull this trailer. That's why the dump trailer rig seems ideal, for this requirement.

If you're going to use the tow vehicle charging system to charge the trailer battery, the alternator output must be connected to an Isolator to prevent the two batteries from being connected together. You can ONLY connect two batteries in Parallel that are the same size and age. The old way years ago was to connect both batteries to a solenoid that connected them together when the ignition was on. This allowed the charging system to charge both, and not have them connected together to allow them to stabilize each other or discharge the starting battery. You can't put the isolating system on the trailer since the 12 volt power wire in your Bargman 7 way connector is controlled by the voltage regulator when running and can't charge each battery as it needs. This can only be accomplished with an Isolator on the tow vehicle.

Another trick for longer deep cycle battery life is using a 20 amp auto reset circuit breaker on the charge line. When the battery is depleted, your voltage regulator and alternator will try to fast charge the battery at a very fast rate. The breaker will trip and take time to cool down allowing the battery to slowly come up until the charge rate is lower preventing boiling and battery overheating.

You absolutely need a battery isolator on every tow vehicle that is going to connect to multiple batteries. (truck campers, motorhomes and boats use the same system with multiple batteries - they will also add a momentary solenoid to connect them both for starting)
2 - 6 volt batteries in Series gives you much more time duration. Keep them close to the load with extremely large conductors.

 

[Montanalocal]

One other way to go might be to think about mounting a gas powered generator on your trailer that could directly power your winch. This has 4000 surge watts and a 12 volt outlet. They also make integrated gas powered winch units. More $, but no worry about running out of power with a generator.

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200664807_200664807

 

[jetsam]

One other way to go might be to think about mounting a gas powered generator on your trailer that could directly power your winch. This has 4000 surge watts and a 12 volt outlet. They also make integrated gas powered winch units. More $, but no worry about running out of power with a generator.

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200664807_200664807

On one hand that sounds excessive; on the other hand you could put a MUCH bigger winch on and get that stuff winched up there in a hurry.

I stumbled over a really neat winch aid yesterday- just a hinged A-frame on the back of the trailer. Back up to log, flip the A-frame down behind the trailer, lash the log to the peak of the A-frame, winch thr A-frame back onto thr trailer. As it lifts, so does the log, and the winch just has to pull straight towards the front.
http://bit.ly/2y8tql5
http://bit.ly/2y8tql5

 

[Ashful]

If you're going to use the tow vehicle charging system to charge the trailer battery, the alternator output must be connected to an Isolator to prevent the two batteries from being connected together.

Coaly, you're thinking old-school. Have you checked out the dump trailer battery chargers? They replace the need for the classic battery isolator.

http://purkeys.net/boss-dump-trailer-charging-system/#FAQS

One other way to go might be to think about mounting a gas powered generator on your trailer that could directly power your winch. This has 4000 surge watts and a 12 volt outlet. They also make integrated gas powered winch units. More $, but no worry about running out of power with a generator.

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200664807_200664807

Considered that, and I already have the generator, but it would take up space and capacity on the trailer, and it would have to go in the cargo area where it's likely to get a little beat up (and maybe be hard to reach when loaded).

I stumbled over a really neat winch aid yesterday- just a hinged A-frame on the back of the trailer. Back up to log, flip the A-frame down behind the trailer, lash the log to the peak of the A-frame, winch thr A-frame back onto thr trailer. As it lifts, so does the log, and the winch just has to pull straight towards the front.
http://bit.ly/2y8tql5

Been looking at those for a while. Might end up going that way, long-term, but going to just try rolling with the winch mounted up high to start.

 

[Jags]

I know you mentioned one battery vs two, but if the idea is to be kind to the batteries a dual setup is the way to go. No matter what you do for charge and discharge you are only beating them half as much.

 

[Ashful]

You absolutely need a battery isolator on every tow vehicle that is going to connect to multiple batteries. (truck campers, motorhomes and boats use the same system with multiple batteries - they will also add a momentary solenoid to connect them both for starting)
2 - 6 volt batteries in Series gives you much more time duration. Keep them close to the load with extremely large conductors.

I've been looking into this some more, and really can't find anything to support either of these claims. There are too many reference to load-balanced parallel 12V setups than I can count, without any mention of issues, provided the batteries are identical manufacture and age. I'll be purchasing two identical batteries on the same date, so that issue is solved. Again, I'm talking about two batteries on the trailer, not referencing the separate battery on the truck, which will be isolated by the dump trailer charging system. These dump trailer charging systems are designed specifically for this situation, isolating the trailer from the truck battery.

The second point, two 6-volt batteries vs. parallel 12-volt batteries, is very hotly debated. There is no consensus here, other than the fact that series 6-volt batteries tend to be a little less costly than the same capacity in 12-volt cases at lower ampacities, and they may have better lifetime (although this is also contested). In my case, the trailer platform is designed to hold two group-31 batteries, and I need 340 amps draw. My little bit of shopping seems to indicate that would be more than 4x the cost to do in 6-volt cases, versus 12-volt cases. Doesn't seem like the way to go, but maybe there's something I'm missing here.

I can buy two 105 Ah (20-hour rating) 12-volt deep cycles with 182 minute reserve ratings for $99/ea. They're rated 675 amps each, which is complete overkill (1300 cranking amps in parallel), but there's nothing wrong with that. Can you beat $198 total cost for 210 amp hours in series 6-volt configuration, for a load of up to 340 amps? If so, I'd be interested, but I'm not finding it.

 

[coaly]

I'm referring to multiple batteries as in 1 in the tow vehicle and connecting another for "house" use such as used in a motor home, truck camper, or battery on the trailer. When you plug in with engine off, the vehicle starting battery is connected to the trailer battery through the charge plug. Unless you have a heavy duty diode in the charge line, the two batteries equalize almost immediately. Connecting the alternator output to the isolator, the starting battery to Batt #1 and the charge plug to Batt #2 prevents using the tow vehicle battery through the plug and charges each battery as needed.

Winnebago always used two 6 volt batteries in series and other high end coaches did as well. (for the house battery) This was also low amperage use such as lights, gas furnace blower motor, LP fridge using 12 volt control voltage and water pump over long time duration. It was probably better for low amp draw. All the electric golf carts used a series of 6 volt batteries at the time too. (80's) Perhaps deep cycle battery manufacturing has improved as well.
In the marine industry you'll find isolators for 2 alternator inputs to charge a battery bank of 4. The system prevents batteries from drawing on each other and in a pinch it is easy to change an alternator output to the other side if you should loose one in a dual engine boat at sea.
I retired from the RV industry in 2008 and wired many in the 25 years I was in business. May be new technology in use now, but the basics never change.
Horse trailers were notorious for killing the tow vehicle battery since the trailer battery for brakes was usually old and dead, it would be plugged into the tow vehicle and an hour later when the horses were loaded and ready to go the truck groaned over. Horse owners also had the cheapest ,worst towing equipment yet put their most prized possessions in them. Go figure. I hope that has changed.

Without isolating the batteries, (tow vehicle and trailer) the voltage regulator can't supply each battery with the charge it needs when started.

I learned this stuff before the internet by going to RV factory training such as Coachmen and Jayco where we had factory reps from the equipment suppliers they used hold classes. It would be a 2 or 3 day course where a rep from Shur-flo pumps, Tekonsha brake controls, Dometic fridges, Suburban furnace, Atwood water heater and converter / charging system rep would take over the class. Years ago the guys I worked with at a dealership asked me if I would move to Florida for their new adventure certifying RV techs. They started the first RV tech school, and when I said you mean I have to be certified for my own business now, they said NO ! We want you to teach ! I retired from both the Propane and RV business at the same time.
I did end up specializing in power convertor internal repair and repair of charge boards in them when dealers didn't want to replace an entire convertor that needed internal work.

 

[Ashful]

Thanks, coaly. I agree the series 6V config is better in theory, but at these high capacity (200Ah) and draw rates (340 amps), it seems the much more expensive route. Massive parallelization (such as two 12V batteries with 600 - 700 amp capacities) does make me at least a little nervous, remembering the way our old diesel car used to occasionally explode one of its paralleled batteries. It had the momentary solenoid tie you mentioned in an earlier post. With two permanently paralleled, I'm thinking the chances of surprise explosions should be reduced, but I haven't found much discussion on that subject.

I haven't bought the batteries yet (will probably make it to the store on Friday evening), so if anyone can point me toward a 200+ Ah and > 340A solution in 6V series near that $200 price point, I'd definitely go that route. I'm just not finding it, myself.

There is still some chance I could kill my truck battery overnight, if I leave the trailer plugged in, since the +12V pin on my 7-pin connector is direct battery hot. The battery charger mounted to the trailer self-limits at 10 amps, which won't kill my truck in an hour, but could drag it down over the course of 8+ hours. I could put a relay on the wiring to the battery charger, which will only connect it to the +12V line when I turn on the running lights (I almost always turn on my running lights when towing), but I'm debating if it's worth it. As you already mentioned, my break-away battery is a bigger risk to the truck battery.

Another addition I'm debating is a cheap solar RV charging rig. They sell some at Tractor Supply as low as $25, right next to the batteries. If that's just hanging on those batteries all day every day, chance are they'll be at or near full charge, any time I hook up my truck to roll. I only use this trailer maybe 3x - 5x per year, most of the time it's just sitting.

 

[jetsam]

Thanks, coaly. I agree the series 6V config is better in theory, but at these high capacity (200Ah) and draw rates (340 amps), it seems the much more expensive route. Massive parallelization (such as two 12V batteries with 600 - 700 amp capacities) does make me at least a little nervous, remembering the way our old diesel car used to occasionally explode one of its paralleled batteries. It had the momentary solenoid tie you mentioned in an earlier post. With two permanently paralleled, I'm thinking the chances of surprise explosions should be reduced, but I haven't found much discussion on that subject.

I haven't bought the batteries yet (will probably make it to the store on Friday evening), so if anyone can point me toward a 200+ Ah and > 340A solution in 6V series near that $200 price point, I'd definitely go that route. I'm just not finding it, myself.

There is still some chance I could kill my truck battery overnight, if I leave the trailer plugged in, since the +12V pin on my 7-pin connector is direct battery hot. The battery charger mounted to the trailer self-limits at 10 amps, which won't kill my truck in an hour, but could drag it down over the course of 8+ hours. I could put a relay on the wiring to the battery charger, which will only connect it to the +12V line when I turn on the running lights (I almost always turn on my running lights when towing), but I'm debating if it's worth it. As you already mentioned, my break-away battery is a bigger risk to the truck battery.

Another addition I'm debating is a cheap solar RV charging rig. They sell some at Tractor Supply as low as $25, right next to the batteries. If that's just hanging on those batteries all day every day, chance are they'll be at or near full charge, any time I hook up my truck to roll. I only use this trailer maybe 3x - 5x per year, most of the time it's just sitting.

I find that a 2w panel that gets 3-4 hours of sun a day is enough to maintain charge, but I wouldn't expect it to charge them back up from a winching job.

If you get a panel bigger that puts out more juice than the batteries' natural discharge rate, put a charge controller on it.

 

[Ashful]

I find that a 2w panel that gets 3-4 hours of sun a day is enough to maintain charge, but I wouldn't expect it to charge them back up from a winching job.

If you get a panel bigger that puts out more juice than the batteries' natural discharge rate, put a charge controller on it.

Yeah, 2W is exactly what I was looking at, but do you think it will be sufficient to maintain a bank of two big batteries in parallel? That would be 83 mA per battery, in maximum sunny conditions, and I usually park the trailer in the shade.

https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/coleman-2-watt-12v-solar-battery-maintainer?cm_vc=-10005

There are 5 watt panels with controllers, from companies like BatteryTender, but they're larger and more expensive. I had a plan to make up a stainless sheetmetal "hood" to keep weather off the winch, and mount this atop that, and the 5W panels may not fit there.

The BOSS dump trailer charging rig will be charging them back up between winching jobs. The panel will just be to maintain while parked.

 

[jetsam]

2w for a few hours a day keeps a big AGM battery above 12v for months.

I don't know what the difference in self-discharge rate is between AGM and regular lead-acid, so I am not sure if you need more or less maintenance charge. The safe answer is to get a bigger panel and a charge controller- but since your batteries are getting topped up every time you hook up the trailer, it's likely that you don't need to care. Put the 2w panel on and forget it. Most of those things are "Indoor Only", so take it apart and put some clear silicone everywhere water could get in the plastic shell.

 

[Ashful]

Bizarre that a solar panel ("solar" meaning "sun") would be rated indoor only!

Reading up on this some more, maybe it's worth the money to get a 3-step controller. If I go that route, the BatteryTender rig is probably the cheapest:

https://www.batterystuff.com/solar-chargers/5-10-watts/12-volt-solar-panels/021-1163.html

 

[jetsam]

Bizarre that a solar panel ("solar" meaning "sun") would be rated indoor only!

Reading up on this some more, maybe it's worth the money to get a 3-step controller. If I go that route, the BatteryTender rig is probably the cheapest:

https://www.batterystuff.com/solar-chargers/5-10-watts/12-volt-solar-panels/021-1163.html

I think the intention with those $10 2 watt panels is that you are going to throw it on your dashboard in the car and plug it into your cigarette lighter.