2001 Sequoia and trailering firewood

[Ashful]

My son has a 2 wd Toyota extra cab 5 speed with a 4 banger. Gutless and can't put any kind of load in it without dragging the bumper. But he gets maybe 2 or 3 more mpg compared to my full size 4wd Chevy. Trying to do the speed limit in the mountains with the gutless 4 banger gets you a lot of middle fingers.

That’s an awful lot of frustration, to just save 3 cents per gallon.

I had my share of gutless trucks when I was young and poor. Anyone remember the Nissan King Cab? I had one with an inline 4-cyl. Graduated from that to a full-size extended cab 4x4 pickup with a v6. Both gutless, both had trouble climbing hills at highway speed.

[numbers based on assumed 12.5 mpg vs 15 mpg and $2.5/gal fuel]

 

[Ashful]

The Colorado and Ranger have similar payloads and still squat.

I really wouldn’t be surprised if they do, but the Ranger is a mini truck and the Colorado is a glorified grocery getter. Isn’t the Tundra marketed as Toyoto’s “Full Size Pickup Truck”? Why would you compare it to a Ford Ranger?

Drop that payload into the back of a Ram 1500 or a Silverado 1500, and it will squat a bit, but nothing like that scary photo you posted of the stock Tundra. That is just frightening, that it sits like that when you’re within 50 kg of it’s payload rating.

 

[bholler]

I really wouldn’t be surprised if they do, but the Ranger is a mini truck and the Colorado is a glorified grocery getter. Isn’t the Tundra marketed as Toyoto’s “Full Size Pickup Truck”? Why would you compare it to a Ford Ranger?

Drop that payload into the back of a Ram 1500 or a Silverado 1500, and it will squat a bit, but nothing like that scary photo you posted of the stock Tundra. That is just frightening, that it sits like that when you’re within 50 kg of it’s payload rating.

That is a tacoma not a tundra.

 

[Ashful]

That is a tacoma not a tundra.

Okay. Now the comparison makes sense. But still, they rate the 2017 Tacoma payload at 734 kg (actually rated a bit higher than the Tundra!). It should not be squatting like that, when loaded basically within a few kg of the rated payload.

 

[bholler]

Okay. Now the comparison makes sense. But still, they rate the 2017 Tacoma payload at 734 kg (actually rated a bit higher than the Tundra!). It should not be squatting like that, when loaded basically within a few kg of the rated payload.

I agree with you completly just correcting your mistake. What gets me is lots of people use springs bumpstops or whatever to help the suspension take more weight. But that is a very small part of weight capacity. Tires and brakes are much more important. Not to mention axles, retainer clips, wheels lugs, etc.

 

[blades]

That’s an awful lot of frustration, to just save 3 cents per gallon.

I had my share of gutless trucks when I was young and poor. Anyone remember the Nissan King Cab? I had one with an inline 4-cyl. Graduated from that to a full-size extended cab 4x4 pickup with a v6. Both gutless, both had trouble climbing hills at highway speed.

[numbers based on assumed 12.5 mpg vs 15 mpg and $2.5/gal fuel]

Yep had one of the first productions 1980, wore out the carburetor jets at less than 15k miles ( at that point the truck was 2 months old). the dealer wanted $350 for the carb ( none replaceable jets) and another $350 to install- went to a race shop in town got a 2 barrel downdraft Webber ,mechanical secondary, made my own adapter plate that woke up the 4 popper. Have other stories on that unit.

 

[woodhog73]

What gets me is lots of people use springs bumpstops or whatever to help the suspension take more weight. But that is a very small part of weight capacity. Tires and brakes are much more important. Not to mention axles, retainer clips, wheels lugs, etc.

I agree. It amazes me what people try to do with half tons. I have a 2016 1/2 ton f150 it’s rated to tow 9,700 lbs in its motor and length configuration. but in reality my 6500lb camper is at the upper limit with what I’m comfortable towing. And the 700 lb tongue weight and another 200lb payload of camping gear is noticeable on the trucks stance and squat. To me it’s a grocery getter, commuter, and a reliable truck to pull my camper long distance. But I really don’t see a 1/2 ton as a work truck. Just too light duty.

 

[bholler]

I agree. It amazes me what people try to do with half tons. I have a 2016 1/2 ton f150 it’s rated to tow 9,700 lbs in its motor and length configuration. but in reality my 6500lb camper is at the upper limit with what I’m comfortable towing. And the 700 lb tongue weight and another 200lb payload of camping gear is noticeable on the trucks stance and squat. To me it’s a grocery getter, commuter, and a reliable truck to pull my camper long distance. But I really don’t see a 1/2 ton as a work truck. Just too light duty.

Absolutly. But they are way more comfortable than 3/4 or 1 tons. They all have their place. It just seems many people dont understand the differences.

 

[woodhog73]

Absolutly. But they are way more comfortable than 3/4 or 1 tons. They all have their place. It just seems many people dont understand the differences.

Right agree. My 1/2 ton with the 5.0 and a light foot on the gas empty averages 20mpg with me driving. Good luck getting that with a bigger truck. But what gets me is how much trucks have gone up pricing wise. It used to be many years ago trucks were for utility and represented a good value. Affordability and usefulness were important.Nowadays every new truck on the lot is loaded with just about every feature you can think of and is no longer what I’d consider a good value. They are coming equipped with features similiar to luxury cars. I mean $50,000 for a new 1/2 ton is starting to be normal these days ! Heck that’s what I’d expect to pay for a luxery sedan like a Mercedes or Cadillac not a truck !

 

[Ashful]

Right agree. My 1/2 ton with the 5.0 and a light foot on the gas empty averages 20mpg with me driving. Good luck getting that with a bigger truck. But what gets me is how much trucks have gone up pricing wise. It used to be many years ago trucks were for utility and represented a good value. Affordability and usefulness were important.Nowadays every new truck on the lot is loaded with just about every feature you can think of and is no longer what I’d consider a good value. They are coming equipped with features similiar to luxury cars. I mean $50,000 for a new 1/2 ton is starting to be normal these days ! Heck that’s what I’d expect to pay for a luxery sedan like a Mercedes or Cadillac not a truck !

People have gotten used to not buying cars, but financing them. So, now Joe Schmoe with a 650 credit score can buy his $50k truck with 60 months of $1000/mo payments. As a result, the median price point rises, and manufacturers respond with even more expensive (profitable) configurations. It is a vicious cycle.

The trouble is, for the money he spent, he could have had a $61k vehicle. Or put otherwise, he could have spent $11,000 less on the same vehicle, if he just paid the same amount into his own savings account prior to going out and buying the vehicle.

With one exception in my poor student years, I have paid cash for every vehicle I have ever owned. That meant I drove a lot of turds in my 20’s and early 30’s, when my friends were driving nicer vehicles, but it has saved me an enormous amount of money in the long run.

 

[woodhog73]

People have gotten used to not buying cars, but financing them. So, now Joe Schmoe with a 650 credit score can buy his $50k truck with 60 months of $1000/mo payments. As a result, the median price point rises, and manufacturers respond with even more expensive (profitable) configurations. It is a vicious cycle.

The trouble is, for the money he spent, he could have had a $61k vehicle. Or put otherwise, he could have spent $11,000 less on the same vehicle, if he just paid the same amount into his own savings account prior to going out and buying the vehicle.

With one exception in my poor student years, I have paid cash for every vehicle I have ever owned. That meant I drove a lot of turds in my 20’s and early 30’s, when my friends were driving nicer vehicles, but it has saved me an enormous amount of money in the long run.

This is good logic and for the most part I agree. However not everyone has $50k to liquidate from a savings account or asset and is forced to finance.

So that logic says shop for a used truck that is more affordable. The problem is the used truck market is just as expensive. When I bought my new 2016 half ton I paid $36k after all rebates. Sticker was $43k. It is the most expensive vehicle I have ever bought. I did trade In something that was free and clear and ponied up the rest of the cash. But a used truck 4 years old was within a couple thousand dollars of what I paid for a new one and had 60,000 miles on it. So as much as I didn’t think the new truck was a “ good value “ I bought it because we trailer a camper long distance and I needed reliability.

That said I will play devils advocate. There is a risk in taking $50k out of your liquid accounts. And spending it on a depreciating asset. Things like job loss, unforeseen medical issues, market crash, house repairs, etc could land in your front door uninvited. People in 2008 who might have been making $150k a year lost jobs during the recession in record numbers. They took jobs paying Half as much or less. Life can be unpredictable. Unless a guy is independently wealthy it’s nice to have a cash pot sitting around.

As for me personally ? I go for the same as cash or very low financing options. My wife bought a brand new $25,000 cross over 0.9 percent interest over 5 years. We could have pulled money out of our savings or the post tax Roth IRA but why ? The markets been doing incredible. Year to date returns on 401k and IRA has been making more $$ than the 0.9 interest has cost us on her car.

Just my thoughts. But I get where your coming from. More often than not cash is king.

 

[Ashful]

This is good logic and for the most part I agree. However not everyone has $50k to liquidate from a savings account or asset and is forced to finance.

This is true, especially for younger shoppers. But what I’m saying is that, if that 30 year old driver just bought a $3k turd, and started putting the $1000/mo. into a savings account instead of sending it to Chrysler Capital (or GM’s equivalent), he’d have the money to buy a new $45k truck in less than 4 years. That beats spending 5+ years to pay for the same truck after-the-fact, and then repeating the cycle. Of course, no one wants to buy the turd when they’re 40, you need to set off on the right foot when you’re young.

So that logic says shop for a used truck that is more affordable. The problem is the used truck market is just as expensive. When I bought my new 2016 half ton I paid $36k after all rebates. Sticker was $43k.

I hear you. When the jobs market (at least locally) tanked in the early 2000’s, and I found myself looking for a new truck, the used trucks were going for almost as much as new trucks. It helped that GM and Dodge were both running “Employee Pricing” at the time, as they were in some real trouble. I ended up buying a new truck for within 20% of the price of a 4-year old version of the same truck.

But that seems to have changed, at least in our local pricing. My latest truck is a 2015 Ram, that I purchased in 2017. I paid a little over $30k for a truck with MSRP around $55k, or thereabouts as I remember it, I didn’t really commit the amounts to memroy. I have the money to easily buy new if I wanted, but why waste it? I got a truck with 9500 miles on it, and was able to order the exact configuration I wanted from Chrysler Capital’s enormous fleet of off-lease vehicles.

If you were able to buy a $43k truck new for $36k, you did very well, I don’t think I’d have gotten the same pricing from my local dealer. Things can vary quite a bit, across this great country.

That said I will play devils advocate. There is a risk in taking $50k out of your liquid accounts. And spending it on a depreciating asset. Things like job loss, unforeseen medical issues, market crash, house repairs, etc could land in your front door uninvited.

This is all true, but I’d be more comfortable having already laid out cash I had, than signing up for 60 months of $1000/mo car payments, in the months preceding such an event. What did those folks do when they lost their jobs, and had a long string of looming car payments in their future, other than forfeit the car and the equity in it? There is enormous comfort in owing nothing, when you find yourself in such situations.

 

[vtwoodheater]

Here we go again......
Tacoma, tundra, same difference. Toyotas aren't trucks.
Half tons are more comfortable to ride in, but you can't carry much more than groceries in the bed.
At least one other person thinks vehicles are a depreciating asset...

 

[woodhog73]

This is true, especially for younger shoppers. But what I’m saying is that, if that 30 year old driver just bought a $3k turd, and started putting the $1000/mo. into a savings account instead of sending it to Chrysler Capital (or GM’s equivalent), he’d have the money to buy a new $45k truck

TRUE but most millennials don’t have the patience for that. They want instant gratification. Different generation than you or I. And if they find themselves sitting on 45,000 cash after years of being broke I might tell them to use it for something else than a new truck. Gotta pay your dues and earn it. But when they default on that $1,000 per month payment we all pay the price somewhere down the line.

There is enormous comfort in owing nothing, when you find yourself in such situations.

Amen brother no argument there

 

[AlbergSteve]

My first new vehicle(a Ford) was 1989. Had so many problems with it, I sold it seven months after I bought it. Took a huge loss, lesson learned. I Drove Japanese and domestic turds until 2012. Those Japanese turds were the most reliable vehicles I've driven. A Toyota van that I bought as a work van with 200k on it, I drove for another 200k without an oil or filter change! The money I saved not buying a depreciating/vanity asset is huge.

This has been my philosophy for years...http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2015/04/28/what-does-your-work-truck-say-about-you/

 

[Ashful]

Steve, the author of that article seems to assume that the only reason anyone ever buys a vehicle that isn't a complete cosmetic wreck is to impress people. But some people just get more joy out of cars and truck than others, it's your own ego that makes you assume they're doing it to impress you.

Yes, they're depreciating assets, but at least they depreciate more slowly than expensive vacations or good beer. You gotta enjoy yourself, sometimes... and it's hard to do that in a Toyota van with 200,000 - 400,000 miles on it.

Besides, if no one bought new trucks, from where would you get your next used one?

 

[AlbergSteve]

My ego, nah. I'm not sure why they do it, there's a lot of psycology wrapped up in vehicle ownership in North America.

Met my wife when I had that van, a few good camping trips and some great memories with it when there weren't work tools in the back. We drove an '89 Tercel 7000kms, loaded to the gunwales, camping all over BC and the Yukon for our honeymoon - I couldn't have rented a car to do that trip for the price I paid for the Tercel - and drove it for another 3 years! That car has been passed on to friends two or three times and just this year hear that it was finally put to rest.

Besides, if no one bought new trucks, from where would you get your next used one?

That's a good question. We spent a full year looking for a used 2wd Tacoma. They didn't exist on the used market, people buy them and keep them for years. The few that we did see were 10-12 years old, "driven hard and put away wet", they'd have 300k on them and they still wanted $10k for them. Supply and demand for a quality product. We could have bought numerous used 3 or 4 year old Colorados or Rangers for a fraction of the price of a used Taco, but in 3 years I'd be back at square one, looking for another vehicle. I swore I'd never buy a new vehicle, but we bit the bullet and bought the Taco new. I'm really hoping it'll go 30 years like that Tercel did.

 

[woodhog73]

My ego, nah. I'm not sure why they do it, there's a lot of psycology wrapped up in vehicle ownership in North America

I imagine all sorts of reasons. For my wife it’s because she has a long commute and is at a point in her career she can’t afford to be late because of a mechanical break down. Too many people depending on her to be on time etc. For me it’s because the used truck market was so darned expensive I went new. But I’ll keep my truck 15 years.

Other reasons might be a family valuing safety ( newer models have latest in safety ratings) could be status symbol, or even a work requirement. I know a lawyer who has to drive a new BMW every 3 years bevause it “ looks better “ when he is visiting clients. All sorts of reasons. And yes ego is one of them too.

 

[Ashful]

All good points, guys. Very thoughtful.

The only point I’d rebut is that I’d bet dealers have tens of thousands of 2-4 year old used Toyota’s for sale. It’s the natural side-effect of having a leasing program. Mine was 2 years old with fully-transferable warranty (3 year bumper to bumper / 7 year power train).

 

[firefighterjake]

That’s an awful lot of frustration, to just save 3 cents per gallon.

I had my share of gutless trucks when I was young and poor. Anyone remember the Nissan King Cab? I had one with an inline 4-cyl. Graduated from that to a full-size extended cab 4x4 pickup with a v6. Both gutless, both had trouble climbing hills at highway speed.

[numbers based on assumed 12.5 mpg vs 15 mpg and $2.5/gal fuel]

Same here . . .

Technically not a truck . . .
1992 (?) Jeep Wrangler YJ . . . the one car that pretty much swore me off Chrysler products, no power and lots of issues. Only vehicle I have ever seen or heard that had the wiper motor die on it.

1997 Nissan Hardbody pickup . . . first pick up. This mini pick up was actually pretty reliable, but it came stripped, not equipped (no radio, no rear bumper) and no power. Picked this up for a nice deal since it was just a few months before Nissan came out with the new Frontier as a replacement.

Late 1990s and early 2000s Toyota 4Runners . . . once again, reliable for the most part . . . but no power.

2010 Nissan Titan: Other than a few minor issues this remains my beast of burden when it comes to hauling stuff -- firewood, building materials, ATVs, sleds, etc. Ended up getting this truck at a decent enough deal due to the timing . . . high gas prices and a crappy economy meant very few folks were buying V-8s . . . but that's what I wanted since I was tired of mashing my 4Runner's go pedal to the floor and still ending up crawling slowly up hills with folks flying by me while hauling a couple of ATVs.

 

[bholler]

Same here . . .

Technically not a truck . . .
1992 (?) Jeep Wrangler YJ . . . the one car that pretty much swore me off Chrysler products, no power and lots of issues. Only vehicle I have ever seen or heard that had the wiper motor die on it.

1997 Nissan Hardbody pickup . . . first pick up. This mini pick up was actually pretty reliable, but it came stripped, not equipped (no radio, no rear bumper) and no power. Picked this up for a nice deal since it was just a few months before Nissan came out with the new Frontier as a replacement.

Late 1990s and early 2000s Toyota 4Runners . . . once again, reliable for the most part . . . but no power.

2010 Nissan Titan: Other than a few minor issues this remains my beast of burden when it comes to hauling stuff -- firewood, building materials, ATVs, sleds, etc. Ended up getting this truck at a decent enough deal due to the timing . . . high gas prices and a crappy economy meant very few folks were buying V-8s . . . but that's what I wanted since I was tired of mashing my 4Runner's go pedal to the floor and still ending up crawling slowly up hills with folks flying by me while hauling a couple of ATVs.

Thats funny i have replaced lots of wiper motors

 

[woodhog73]

the one car that pretty much swore me off Chrysler products, no power and lots of issues

Well Chrysler certainly has seen their share of struggles nothing was a bigger disappointment in quality than the.......

Wait for it.....

Late 80s early 90s “K” car series. Chrysler labaron. Everything that could go wrong did. Bought a used one back in the day with 65,000 miles and within 6 months dumped over $3,000 in repairs. Then 6 months later another $1,000. Total crap. That was at a time where I didn’t have any extra money. But it was a trap. Keep putting money into it and can’t get out of the car. If I still had that car today ???? I’d shoot it full of holes for fun.

Yes I’m to blame too. I bought a car with issues and didn’t look at it good enough. Still with modern vehicles 65,000 is nothing. Just getting broken in.

The 80s and 90s were not good years for Chrysler

 

[bholler]

Well Chrysler certainly has seen their share of struggles nothing was a bigger disappointment in quality than the.......

Wait for it.....

Late 80s early 90s “K” car series. Chrysler labaron. Everything that could go wrong did. Bought a used one back in the day with 65,000 miles and within 6 months dumped over $3,000 in repairs. Then 6 months later another $1,000. Total crap. That was at a time where I didn’t have any extra money. But it was a trap. Keep putting money into it and can’t get out of the car. If I still had that car today ???? I’d shoot it full of holes for fun.

Yes I’m to blame too. I bought a car with issues and didn’t look at it good enough. Still with modern vehicles 65,000 is nothing. Just getting broken in.

The 80s and 90s were not good years for Chrysler

2000s were a little better but not great.

 

[Ashful]

2000s were a little better but not great.

It was really with the Daimler take-over, that they started getting straightened out, IMO. Now, I think they’re one of the better brands around, but given their history, it’s going to take awhile for people to realize or accept that.

 

[blades]

not Daimler any more now Italian owned