2020 EPA Certified Wood Stove Database

[BKVP]

Not trying to get in an argument here... but I'm fairly certain this is not true.

I am not in the pharmaceutical field, but I am in an R&D field. Pharmaceutical companies spend an ENORMOUS amount of money on R&D. I am green with envy when I look at how much they spend on R&D. They also spend an ENORMOUS amount of money on marketing, and there are some pharmaceutical companies that spend more on marketing than R&D. However, most do not.

Average Research & Development Costs for Pharmaceutical Companies

Pharmaceutical companies tend to have the highest research and development costs, dedicating about 17% of revenues to it.

www.investopedia.com

.

Like I said, I'm not an expert in this area, but a quick google search showed me that what I had heard (I know a lot of people in research at Pfizer) seems to be correct.

I am not at all trying to defend big pharma here, or anything like that. Just wanted to address what seemed to me to be some misinformation.

I think current conditions would have a major influence on the split. Just think of the money poured into vaccines at this point.

Between 2008-2015, solid fuel manufacturers pumped money into R&D in order to meet compliance of the 2015 NSPS.

Then once that was satisfied, money shifts to marketing those products.

 

[illini81]

I think current conditions would have a major influence on the split. Just think of the money poured into vaccines at this point.

Between 2008-2015, solid fuel manufacturers pumped money into R&D in order to meet compliance of the 2015 NSPS.

Then once that was satisfied, money shifts to marketing those products.

Yes, R&D $$ is always going to fluctuate. But I promise you, if you do some research you will find that pharma is simply a field where tons of $$ gets spent on R&D. I don't understand enough about the field to know why, but I think in general it is a pretty competitive field which tends to result in R&D expenditures.

In comparison, I work in the Aerospace and Defense industry. In general, there is minimal competition in this field, and so companies are very hesitant to invest more than token amounts in R&D. Investing more than 5% of your revenues on R&D is very rare. Most Aerospace and Defense companies are closer to 2%.

 

[ddown]

Can't understand PE super 27 same emission as the last years model

 

[farmerandy7481]

I'm confused by what the "NSPS Compliance 2020" column versus the 26% tax credit. I keep seeing on this forum that the only ZC fireplace that the tax credit applies is the Montecito Estate yet there are several ZC fireplaces that have "Yes" in the "NSPS Compliance 2020" column. Do I take it there is a different list of appliances that meet the tax credit criteria? If the "NSPS Compliance 2020" column is does not indicate the tax credit, what does it mean?

 

[BKVP]

I'm confused by what the "NSPS Compliance 2020" column versus the 26% tax credit. I keep seeing on this forum that the only ZC fireplace that the tax credit applies is the Montecito Estate yet there are several ZC fireplaces that have "Yes" in the "NSPS Compliance 2020" column. Do I take it there is a different list of appliances that meet the tax credit criteria? If the "NSPS Compliance 2020" column is does not indicate the tax credit, what does it mean?

Allow me to clarify. In order to sell a wood heater after May 15, 2020, the wood heater must be compliant with the New Source Performance Standards (NSPS). Then, if you have a wood heater that is NSPS compliant and also have a HHV efficiency of 75% or more, it qualifies for either the 25C Tax Credit or the 25D Tax Credit. The "D" expires 12/31/2022. This is 26% of all costs associated with a complete and safe installation. Beginning 1/1/2023, the 25C takes over. That is a 30% tax credit...but it has a cap of $2,000 whereas the 25D had no cap.

 

[farmerandy7481]

Allow me to clarify. In order to sell a wood heater after May 15, 2020, the wood heater must be compliant with the New Source Performance Standards (NSPS). Then, if you have a wood heater that is NSPS compliant and also have a HHV efficiency of 75% or more, it qualifies for either the 25C Tax Credit or the 25D Tax Credit. The "D" expires 12/31/2022. This is 26% of all costs associated with a complete and safe installation. Beginning 1/1/2023, the 25C takes over. That is a 30% tax credit...but it has a cap of $2,000 whereas the 25D had no cap.

Got it. So I have to filter the list to NSPS contains Yes AND HHV efficiency >= 75%. Thank you.

 

[MaybeErnie]

I know that this thread is an old thread, but I need some clarification on how the 2020 NSPS are applied. One post earlier in this thread stated

EPA rules only apply to products in possession of manufacturers and retailers. Once a EPA regulated product is sold, it is no longer a "New Source". NSPS regulation means New Source Performance Standards.

but I'm being told that it's actually more restrictive than that. Specifically, any new install, even a relocation within the same house, is illegal if the stove doesn't meet the 2020 rules. That pretty much eliminates every used stove I see listed because the vast majority of used stoves are pre-2020 and have higher emissions than allowed under NSPS.

I understand that actual enforcement varies widely across states and other jurisdictions but that doesn't change the fact that all of these older stoves are technically illegal to install under Federal law. That's a problem for insurance coverage. Existing installs are apparently grandfathered in.

This is a major show-stopper for me because I was just told that because my recently purchased/installed used stove doesn't meet the regs, I'm SOL. I really hope that this isn't the case and there's more to the story.

 

[MaybeErnie]

I know that this is an old thread, but I need some clarification on how the 2020 NSPS are applied. One post earlier in this thread stated

EPA rules only apply to products in possession of manufacturers and retailers. Once a EPA regulated product is sold, it is no longer a "New Source". NSPS regulation means New Source Performance Standards.

but I'm being told that it's actually more restrictive than that. Specifically, any new install, even a relocation within the same house, is illegal if the stove doesn't meet the 2020 rules. That pretty much eliminates every used stove I see listed for sale because the vast majority of used stoves are pre-2020 and have higher emissions than allowed under NSPS.

I understand that actual enforcement varies widely across states and other jurisdictions but that doesn't change the fact that all of these older stoves are technically illegal to install under Federal law. That's a problem for insurance coverage even if the unit is UL-listed and all of the specified clearances have been met. Existing installs are apparently grandfathered in.

This is a major show-stopper for me because I was just told that because my recently purchased/installed used stove doesn't meet the regs, I'm SOL. I really hope that this isn't the case and there's more to the story.

 

[brenndatomu]

This is a major show-stopper for me because I was just told that because my recently purchased/installed used stove doesn't meet the regs, I'm SOL. I really hope that this isn't the case and there's more to the story.

I can't imagine you'd have too much trouble in Montana...install it and run it.
Who is supposedly going to stop you? If your HO insurance hassles you, call someone else...most don't give a rip about your stove, as long as its installed properly, and they get their extra "woodstove" $ for your policy.

 

[MaybeErnie]

I can't imagine you'd have too much trouble in Montana...install it and run it.
Who is supposedly going to stop you? If your HO insurance hassles you, call someone else...most don't give a rip about your stove, as long as its installed properly, and they get their extra "woodstove" $ for your policy.

The issue surfaced when the insurance company required an inspection of the install and the chimney outfit I called said "Nope, it's non-compliant." Totally unexpected and a major bummer. I thought I'd done a lot of research beforehand but I missed this.

 

[BKVP]

None of this is true on a Federal level! NSPS stands for New Source Performance Standards. There are ZERO EPA rules about used stoves! The exact vernacular is "prior non-commercial ownership". Retailers can sell used stoves IF they can substantiate a chain of non-commercial ownership.

There can be state and local regulations that supersede EPA regulations. In WA state, as an example, it is a violation to "exchange ownership" of a non EPA certified stove. They specifically do not say "sell". Eliminating barter, donate etc.

Missoula is very restrictive on wood heaters. Always check state and local reg.

BKVP

 

[brenndatomu]

The issue surfaced when the insurance company required an inspection of the install and the chimney outfit I called said "Nope, it's non-compliant." Totally unexpected and a major bummer. I thought I'd done a lot of research beforehand but I missed this.

I'd keep calling different people until you find someone a little more reasonable to deal with

 

[BKVP]

I'd keep calling different people until you find someone a little more reasonable to deal with

Is it the stove or installation that was flagged?

BKVP

 

[MaybeErnie]

It was specifically the stove's age that was flagged. I'm confident that I did a good job on the installation and I doubt any other issues will emerge.

I had sent the chimney outfit (a large reputable firm that apparently does most of the inspections and cleaning in my county) a description of the whole installation from the hearth on up, including the model and year of the stove. They got back to me saying that it basically wouldn't be worth paying for the inspection because the stove wouldn't meet the required guidelines. They quoted the following text:

"... Under federal and state rules you cannot generally install a used 2001 wood stove as a new installation in Montana. While the EPA 2020 New Source Performance Standards (NSPS) grandfathered in older stoves that are already installed and operational, they prohibit the sale, resale and new installation of appliances that do not meet the stricter 2020 emission limits (maximum 2.0 grams of particulate matter per hour). A stove manufactured in 2001 will only comply with older 1988 EPA standards which allowed up to 7.5 or 4.5 g/hr."

This threw me big time, so I went Google-crazy and the results seemed to accord with the above statement, but were a little fuzzy in some respects. That's why I came here to get additional input from the experts!

I read that while NSPS is a Federal law, the EPA has delegated all enforcement to state and local authorities. So... I first called the county and was told that this would be a state issue (MT Dep of Environmental Quality). I just spoke with their enforcement division and was told that this was absolutely not something they would pursue given all of the larger issues on their plate. Basically no one else seems to care.

So where does this leave me? As brenndatomu suggested, I'm going to contact some other firms. From what you folks have said here, I'm starting to understand that this isn't an issue that typically comes up when installing an older stove, so unless my insurance company pings on it, I'm planning to move forward and hopefully it won't be brought up again.

If it helps, I'm not in Missoula and am outside of any municipality. There are no additional restrictions in place for the area I live. The stove is a 2001 Lopi Liberty which predates the NexGen Fyre and NexGen Hybrid models. After a bit of work, it's in great shape.

 

[BKVP]

Your stove is EPA approved. End of the matter! And that 1988 is wrong. There was Phase II in 1990 and your Lopi would have needed to comply. As suggested, get another insurance company.

On EPA's website, right hand side, Historical List of Previously Certified Wood Heaters.

Seems your issue is a local person that goes by AI generated output.

BKVP

 

[stoveliker]

@MaybeErnie
Just to place the info you're getting from BKVP in context; he is the VP of BK, and deals with EPA, certifications, and the regulations regarding all this. He regularly is in groups advising the EPA on wood stove regulations etc.
He knows this (possibly better than anyone on this website).

 

[BKVP]

T

@MaybeErnie
Just to place the info you're getting from BKVP in context; he is the VP of BK, and deals with EPA, certifications, and the regulations regarding all this. He regularly is in groups advising the EPA on wood stove regulations etc.
He knows this (possibly better than anyone on this website).

Thank you. I am up to my eyes in EPA with proposed new rule due out December 15, 2026. I plan on retiring next year so this will be my last rule making battle.

BKVP

 

[MaybeErnie]

Thank you. I am up to my eyes in EPA with proposed new rule due out December 15, 2026. I plan on retiring next year so this will be my last rule making battle.

BKVP

Huge thanks to @BKVP and the others who responded here! I was close to giving up on this project, or at least this stove, and you've completely turned it around. Seriously, I was about to list it on FB Marketplace or put plants on top of it or something! You have no idea how appreciative I am for the input!