2022-2023 BK everything thread

[BKVP]

The bimetallic spring is housed in the thermostat body. The only opening on the body cavity housing this spring, is opened to capture heat from the rear plate of the firebox. The spring is isolated within that cavity.

When a user establishes a specific heat output, and the wood burns/collapses, the spring contracts as the collapsing fuel increases heat output, set by the user. Once that piece(s) of fuel are consumed, the spring relaxes allowing more air to maintain the same prescribed amount of heat output desired by the user. Essentially, the thermostat converts an unmetered fuel into a metered fuel.

If the weather forecasts indicate a fairly stable high/low forecast for multiple days, it is 100% conceivable no adjustment, other than adding more fuel, will be needed to maintain the same amount of heat output desired.

I have been running NIELS for well into 3 months. Quite often, no adjustment to the thermostat is needed for many consecutive days.

When the forecast is correct, lows dropping by several degrees, user can turn up the thermostat for a "new" minimum heat output to maintain the same comfort level.

As posted by myself many, many times, each install is unique. For all the variables previously identified, some adjustment to a "low" minimum setting may be needed.

So moving on, who will make it to and win the Superbowl?

BKVP

 

[TheElementalCashew]

No, this is not the case. The flapper does not, nor does it ever need to, completely close when the knob is set at max. If this were even possible, people would be complaining about their stoves going "black box" when set on high.

The bimetallic coil moves the flapper over a relatively small range, by comparison to the range provided by the knob. Moreover, the knob has 180 degrees of rotation beyond where the flapper closed on a room temperature stove. You're never going to get the bimetallic more "open" than a room temperature stove, so there's always going to be a position at which you've locked that thing closed.

Now, after understanding that, go back and re-read posts 1111 and 1115.

I believe he may be correct on the flapper movement comment. Applying a heat gun to the bare coil while the flapper is open resulted in the flapper closing completely. Obviously the heat gun makes it move much faster than a slowly heating up stove.

 

[Ashful]

I believe he may be correct on the flapper movement comment. Applying a heat gun to the bare coil while the flapper is open resulted in the flapper closing completely. Obviously the heat gun makes it move much faster than a slowly heating up stove.

Was your knob set to maximum burn? Now compare the temperature achieved under direct application of the heat gun, versus what it may see during normal operation. If achieving full closure with a maximum knob setting, I'd suspect you had that coil much hotter than it would ever get during normal operation.

I have operated one of my two BK's many hundreds of hours at wide open throttle, many, many dozens of full loads burned down with thermostat set on high through the entire burn. I have never seen the fire die down indicating it was anywhere near closing while running on any high setting. However, if I turn the knob while it is running like this, at any time during the burn, I can immediately squash the fire to a black box.

So, do you still believe the flapper will ever close off completely, when running the stove on a maximum knob setting?

 

[shgRUSS]

Not offended, at all. Not sure why you had thought I was, but no worries. Just trying to help you understand the mechanism.

But your post 1123 seems to be drifting from the point we were debating, to where I'm not sure what the debate even is anymore. How does all of this relate to your issue with our "minimum dial setting", started in post #1106, 1108, and 1112?

The minimum dial setting is pretty simple, as already explained, it's simply the lowest you can turn your BK without stalling it. That position does not depend on any change in the temperature of your house, but it will depend on draft and the temperature of the stove. Any thought experiments of putting into a box would nudge it according to these parameters.

I agree we were getting off topic, thought of that as soon as I went to bed last night. I still disagree with your minimum setting though and my evidence is in the control itself. Dial is attached to the shaft, shaft to a gear, opposing gear to bimetallic coil, coil to flapper. Unless you are riding the hole that coil is always interfering with the dial position. If your stove/ house cools off it opens the flapper, house/ stove gets warmer it closes it down. I will give a scenario with just one variable change. You have your stove cruising at your minimum setting now get a electric heater and put it so it blows the heat right toward the air control assembly(similar to boxing in your stove and not letting the heat transfer to your house). The coil will think the stove is too hot and start to some degree close the flapper more (unless riding the hole) moving you to a point lower than your minimum setting and eventually stalling the cat. I think we agree on draft variance will affect minimum setting but there are still many other variables for example fuel(moisture, quality species, etc).

 

[shgRUSS]

Was your knob set to maximum burn? Now compare the temperature achieved under direct application of the heat gun, versus what it may see during normal operation. If achieving full closure with a maximum knob setting, I'd suspect you had that coil much hotter than it would ever get during normal operation.

I have operated one of my two BK's many hundreds of hours at wide open throttle, many, many dozens of full loads burned down with thermostat set on high through the entire burn. I have never seen the fire die down indicating it was anywhere near closing while running on any high setting. However, if I turn the knob while it is running like this, at any time during the burn, I can immediately squash the fire to a black box.

So, do you still believe the flapper will ever close off completely, when running the stove on a maximum knob setting?

I will state again I never did say fully closed. Like I mentioned before the coil needs to be in a room temp environment. Unheated building the stove could burn down, heat gun on coil gets flapper fully closed. Both extremes result in exceeding the limitations of the coil to regulate.

 

[shgRUSS]

The bimetallic spring is housed in the thermostat body. The only opening on the body cavity housing this spring, is opened to capture heat from the rear plate of the firebox. The spring is isolated within that cavity.

When a user establishes a specific heat output, and the wood burns/collapses, the spring contracts as the collapsing fuel increases heat output, set by the user. Once that piece(s) of fuel are consumed, the spring relaxes allowing more air to maintain the same prescribed amount of heat output desired by the user. Essentially, the thermostat converts an unmetered fuel into a metered fuel.

If the weather forecasts indicate a fairly stable high/low forecast for multiple days, it is 100% conceivable no adjustment, other than adding more fuel, will be needed to maintain the same amount of heat output desired.

I have been running NIELS for well into 3 months. Quite often, no adjustment to the thermostat is needed for many consecutive days.

When the forecast is correct, lows dropping by several degrees, user can turn up the thermostat for a "new" minimum heat output to maintain the same comfort level.

As posted by myself many, many times, each install is unique. For all the variables previously identified, some adjustment to a "low" minimum setting may be needed.

So moving on, who will make it to and win the Superbowl?

BKVP

The reason I started debate is for someone researching or learning a new stove. The idea entrenched in this thread has been there is a rock solid minimum setting to stop cat stall and I disagree with that to some extent. Your are absolutely right, if conditions are very stable the minimum setting is very stable. Just want people to know there is no minimum magic set and forget position.

 

[kennyp2339]

Just want people to know there is no minimum magic set and forget position.

There certainly is for me … 1 o’clock most of the time 😝

 

[reaperman1]

Just want people to know there is no minimum magic set and forget position.

I agree with this. I need to mess around with my thermostat to keep a constant heat output. I agree on a reload the fire will be stronger. But once the burn is established, the heat output on my stove will decrease an hour or more later, even with an almost full load of wood. It seems to burn hot right away almost as if it uses all of the woods Btu's up front than smolders itself until the end. I generally like to keep a few candling flames if possible. Any more and the flu temps are 6-700. Its impossible to measure the stove top temperature on my stove (Boxer) since BK encased the entire firebox. My guide a magnetic thermometer centered on above the cat on the top of the casement. But this about 1.5" or so higher than the actual firebox after an air space. Plus I have an Auber probe which I would be lost without .

 

[Ashful]

There certainly is for me … 1 o’clock most of the time 😝

Same. I even have it marked with tape on each of my BK's. I haven't moved those tape marks once in 7 years (and 75 cords!).

 

[njk4o5]

The reason I started debate is for someone researching or learning a new stove. The idea entrenched in this thread has been there is a rock solid minimum setting to stop cat stall and I disagree with that to some extent. Your are absolutely right, if conditions are very stable the minimum setting is very stable. Just want people to know there is no minimum magic set and forget position.

I don't believe any stoves adjust the air/heat output based on room temperature, they all adjust based on interior stove temperature. If some manufacturer did make a stove that adjusts the stove heat output based on room temperature it would be an absolute game changer. How cool would it be to stuff a wood stove full of oak and walk across the room to a thermostat and set it at 70 and have the stove keep the room at 70 for 12 hours.

 

[reaperman1]

How cool would it be to stuff a wood stove full of oak and walk across the room to a thermostat and set it at 70 and have the stove keep the room at 70 for 12 hours.

I have this unit for my Big green egg smoker, it works exactly as you described it. Once the coals are established, the temp probe tells the blower fan when and how often to give the firebox a puff of air. It keeps the desired temperature setting constant. Great, now you made me hungry for rack of smoked baby back ribs

DigiQ Green Kit w/ Pit Viper Fan and Ceramic Adaptor

bbqguru.com

 

[shgRUSS]

I don't believe any stoves adjust the air/heat output based on room temperature, they all adjust based on interior stove temperature. If some manufacturer did make a stove that adjusts the stove heat output based on room temperature it would be an absolute game changer. How cool would it be to stuff a wood stove full of oak and walk across the room to a thermostat and set it at 70 and have the stove keep the room at 70 for 12 hours.

I mostly agree with you, directly the thermostat is sensing the stove. The room / house is the heat sink for the stove. In my opinion the thermostat is very good at regulating the stove to keep a steady room / house temp. Also some incoming room air flows though the flapper assembly for combustion, but how much influence direct room air vs stove temp would be hard to guess because air flow is always changing with heat demand. My stove is 6’ from my outside door, when I walk in from outside in winter I can count to threeish and can hear that coil adjust the flapper so there has to be some room influence to the coil not just stove.

 

[NHWS]

A more basic thermostat related question: it may be more possible to buy / install a Regency stove (F5200 or F3500) than a Blaze King (KE40 or PE32). I've heard good things about both. How much of a difference does the BK's thermostat make in practice? Is anyone familiar enough with both lines to suggest other important differences between them? I know the specs for them; I'm looking for differences in what it is like to live with them.

I've been reading the forums for both brands, but it's not easy to separate the general picture from the small details.

 

[BKVP]

I don't believe any stoves adjust the air/heat output based on room temperature, they all adjust based on interior stove temperature. If some manufacturer did make a stove that adjusts the stove heat output based on room temperature it would be an absolute game changer. How cool would it be to stuff a wood stove full of oak and walk across the room to a thermostat and set it at 70 and have the stove keep the room at 70 for 12 hours.

There was one. Wall mounted thermostat, optional battery in event power went out, manual override of thermostat etc. Did not sell well, dropped after a couple of years.

 

[njk4o5]

There was one. Wall mounted thermostat, optional battery in event power went out, manual override of thermostat etc. Did not sell well, dropped after a couple of years.

what manufacturer?

 

[Ashful]

Here's something some may find helpful, as they wait for their cat to come up to light-off temperature before closing the bypass.

Here's what my chimney pipe and cat gauge show 8 minutes after a cold start, when I close my bypass:



Here's my OEM steelcat glowing, about 10 seconds after closing the bypass:



Clearly, I could have closed it even sooner. This was a load of mixed oak and walnut, dried 4 summers in a shed, in an Ashford 30 on less than 15 feet of pipe. Not only is this minimal chimney, it is single wall stovepipe for the first 6 feet, not the recommended double-wall. The cat is now in it's fifth season, and has seen approximately 13 cords of wood, run almost exclusively on 24 hour low-burn cycles, perhaps 16k hours.

The take-away:

1. If you're waiting for your cat to come up to active before closing your bypass:
   1. You're wasting fuel
   2. You're being unnecessarily hard on your chimeny and bypass door
   3. You're losing time
2. If you cannot achieve cat light off in less than 10 minutes
   1. Your fuel is not dry
3. These cat's don't always die in 10,000 hours, they can go many years past that under some conditions
4. Anyone who still thinks these stoves are finicky, complicated, or difficult has clearly never run one

 

[BKVP]

what manufacturer?

Quadra-Fire® Launches Hearth Industry's First Wood Stove With Programmable Wall Thermostat

/PRNewswire/ -- In not one, but two industry firsts, Quadra-Fire, a brand of Hearth and Home Technologies Inc., introduces the only wood stove equipped with a...

www.prnewswire.com

 

[Highbeam]

what manufacturer?

I seem to remember it being somebody like quadrafire? Also that it was full on or off. Not gradual in relation to the heat needs. It was in a noncat too so not a wide range of outputs.

 

[Nealm66]

I remember looking at one. Pretty cool I thought but couldn’t afford it at the time. Probably just as well.

 

[BKVP]

We know from consumer input, MOST wood burners want no automation or added complexity in their appliances. As one put it. "If I want automation, I'll buy a pellet stove."

Of course there is a push to develop stoves that can address consumer operating errors, to reduce emissions.

 

[Ashful]

We know from consumer input, MOST wood burners want no automation or added complexity in their appliances. As one put it. "If I want automation, I'll buy a pellet stove."

Amen. Although I'm fully aware there's a lot of tech baked into the secret sauce that makes this whole system work, I really enjoy the step away from my otherwise technology-intensive daily life, that woodburning offers. I know it's an illusion, but that's fine... don't ruin the illusion!

 

[kennyp2339]

If it goes tech route, I’d more then likely buy used gen 2 epa stoves and avoid it all.

 

[Nealm66]

I think it would be cool but to be honest, in my house with the princess in our winters, I can keep it pretty dang close to 72 in our main living area. Only in the warmer spells is there a problem and I haven’t found a low enough setting and doubt any automation would help. But don’t get me wrong, if there was a wiz bang gizmo with a fancy digital screen and online interface that promised .00001 temperature accuracy I’d have to give it a try

 

[BKVP]

I think it would be cool but to be honest, in my house with the princess in our winters, I can keep it pretty dang close to 72 in our main living area. Only in the warmer spells is there a problem and I haven’t found a low enough setting and doubt any automation would help. But don’t get me wrong, if there was a wiz bang gizmo with a fancy digital screen and online interface that promised .00001 temperature accuracy I’d have to give it a try

The only wiz bang they want is to reduce emissions from non wiz bang types that try to burn sponges....

 

[Nealm66]

Well I hope they don’t start forcing us all to burn press logs.