Advice on New Insert

[LandscaperDarryl]

Hi all. New member here. Looks like a good site and having been a member of numerous fourms, what I appreciate the most is that you keep it friendly here...no petty bickering...at least none I've seen yet I apoligize if this gets a little lengthy.

Here's the deal....I've toyed with buying an insert for our fireplace for years, but with the price of oil the way it is and the fact that I have an ample supply of wood available from maintenance of our 34 acres, I can't justify not having one any longer. It's really just a matter of me picking up the wood piles I have laying about and maybe cutting some standing dead oak for this season...too late to drop anything green. I have a front end loader on my tractor and a husky 136 (no i don't like it) and a 55 rancher already. I used to heat with the fireplace in spring and fall, pretty much using it as a wood disposal unit, but with the heavy draft from it we tend to get a little puff from the furnace when it kicks on for the domestic hot water and wifey would give me grief every time, so i stopped using it and gave all my wood to my next door neighbor, just keeping an emergency supply on hand on the front porch.

I guess things have changed a bit since i last looked into inserts....I see they now recommend a full stainless steel liner. Is that really necessary? We have a 1 1/2 story 1600 sq foot farmhouse cape with the fireplace located on the outside living room wall. The flue looks to be about 10 inch by 12 inch...can't really reach up that high. I've gotten as far as removing the damper door and a visual inspection from the fireplace...all looks good but it could use a cleaning which I have always done in the past myself. Can I just run the pipe up to the flue and seal the annual space betweent the pipe and flue?

As far as other questions...does the entire damper unit come out or do I just run the pipe up the damper door opening? It seems to be set in there pretty well...I couldn't budge it. It's a shade under 6 inches though so I guess I'd have to go to an oval liner to get though it...sorry but I really don't know much about this stuff. I was reading that a blocking plate is recommended as well, and that may be necessary in my case because I don't see how the front plates would seal against by brick facing due to the mortar joints.

As far as stoves go: The Drolet Escape 1400-I which is made by Stove Builder International can be had at Northern Tool for $1,000 plus shipping. It looks like it would fit the bill although the firebox is pretty short at 10 inches tall and they don't tend to carry the highest quality stuff from my experience. I've looked at the Regency line at our local dealer in the past but they weren't exactly cutting deals on them then and I doubt they are now. Something tells me you're all gonna tell me to bite the bullet and go for the regency, lol.

Well, in the interest of brevity I'll leave it at that for now....any comments are greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Darryl

 

[LandscaperDarryl]

Some things I didn't mention...really no room for a free standing unit as the path to the downstairs bath and to the upstairs bedrooms would be really tight, and existing masonry fireplace is kinda short at 30 inches....too short for most stoves I've seen other than really small ones.

Fairly open floor plan...6 foot open doorway from living room to central hall...hall connects to both the family room and kitchen and with wide openings and there's another wide opening from the family room to the eat-in portion of the kitchen. It tends to get a bit cool in there when burning the fireplace, but oh well. It's fine during the day since it's south facing and we rarely eat in there anyway, lol. Besides, Thermostat is in the family room near that area so if it gets too cool the primary heat will kick on. I'm not intent on providing 100 percent of our heating...just supplemental. One bedroom will tend to be kinda cool too but that son is a warm sleeper and we have plenty of blankets We keep it pretty cool up there as it is and use an electric space heater in the upstairs full bath anyway.

Hope I'm not rambling.

Darryl

 

[begreen]

Yes, you want a full liner, preferably insulated for your exterior chimney. It will perform much better and as long as you are burning dry wood, will stay relatively clean. To realize the full heating capacity of the stove you'll also want to have a damper seal plate (aka block-off plate) installed.

I don't know much about this specific stove, but in general Drolet makes stoves that are well built and offer a good value.

 

[LandscaperDarryl]

Thanks for your reply. Here's the stove. Maybe i'll try to snap some pics of the layout of the house and the fireplace tomorrow. Pretty much decided that it's gonna be an insert in the existing fireplace though...not a lot of other viable options for me unless i go with an outdoor wood burner and that's just not in the budget.

(broken link removed to http://www.drolet.ca/product.aspx?CategoId=7&Id=428)

Seems hard to beat at $1000 bucks plus $165 shipping to my area. Fire box does seem kinda small at 10 inches tall though and the door is only 8 inces tall!

 

[savageactor7]

Good morning Darryl I think you're save yourself a lot of coin by burning wood but that firebox at 1.8cf seems to small for a 1600 farmhouse. 1k is a good price but if it doesn't do the job...then what? Take your time and look further for a larger firebox.... Hell, you have your own wood supply for wood burners that's like being in the cat bird seat. You'll be much better off getting the correct insert the 1st time...

...free standing stoves are easily upgraded and replaced. Inserts can become goverment projects.

 

[tkirk22]

I looked at that insert and almost bought one. Check into whether the surround panels are extra $$$.

I have an Englander insert which is probably the closest match for that Drolet. It doesn't have the heat activated fan and I think the warranty was not as good. It's a plate steel stove though so any warranty doesn't matter much to me since I have welders and I don't forsee any problems with it anyway.

I used 22 feet of insulated liner and I'm quite happy with the performance. Spend the time and bucks to do the install right and it will pay off for years to come.

You may have to do something for outside air makeup so the furnace doesn't compete for air. Maybe not though, I suspect a small insert would use less air than your old fireplace while supplying a lot more heat. It'll depend on your house and it's tightness.

PS. Get a CO detector and replace the batteries in those smoke alarms.

 

[LandscaperDarryl]

No worry guys, I'll do it right...too much at stake not to, although I must admit I'm temped to just run a flex pipe up to the flue tile and put a positve seal in there. Efficiency isn't a big issue for me since I have an ample supply of free wood. But from what I've read about going into an oversized flue on an outside chimney, I guess I'd just be asking for trouble as far a creosote build up.

I already have a CO detector in that room due to the fireplace. What i should probably do is install a seal on the door down to the basement and keep a window cracked down there for the furnace. We used to have to keep that door open due to the cat litter box being down there but the cat has since departed. Not sure firebox capacity is a really big issue though as there's usually someone home and I stay up late and wife gets up early and I hardly work in the winter anyway being a landscaper in Connecticut...plenty of time to split wood and stoke the fire.

Checked the specs again on the Regency i2400 which is available locally...that's the stove I had decided on previously. Looks like it should fit and it's a bit larger than the Drolet. I had also looked at an economy line of Lopi at one point...forget the name...Avalon maybe??? I do recall that it was a passive convection model...no fan. The dealer claimed it didn't need one. I'll look into the Englander too...thatnks for the suggestion.

The big question I have at this point is relating to the removal of the damper. How are those usually installed? Is it just set in there or can I expect there to be some hardware in there holding it on....I can't seem to find any nor any discussion here on that issue. I know it's got some weight to it and it's probably gummed in a bit but something seems to be holding it in place. I can see a wedge in one spot under it...the same type that's used to hold handles on axes and mauls...not sure what that's for.

Thanks for the replies so far. I did snap some pics but haven't downloaded them yet.

 

[begreen]

... I must admit I’m temped to just run a flex pipe up to the flue tile and put a positve seal in there. Efficiecny isn’t a big issue for me since I have an ample supply of free wood. But from what I’ve read about going into an oversized flue on an outside chimney, I guess I’d just be asking for trouble as far a creosote build up.

Efficiency is an issue. It keeps the air cleaner and your chimney too. As long as you are burning dry wood, a clean burning properly installed stove will produce very little creosote. By putting in a full insulated liner, you will have much easier starts and less smoke spillage when you open the stove door. A proper block off plate will keep the heat in the stove cavity as opposed to heating outdoors.

What are the fireplace dimensions Darryl? That will narrow down the field. Try to stick with about a 2 cu ft stove. You mentioned Avalon and Lopi. Did you look at the Avalon Rainier? That is a bullet-proof stove, great performer. A Quadrafire 3100 or a Pacific Energy Pacific are also great performers.

 

[LandscaperDarryl]

Well...the fireplace dimesnsions are a little tricky since it tapers down toward the back pretty quickly so width becomes an issue with increasing depth. But it's 30 inches tall and 27 inches wide at the back and 41 inches wide at the front with a total depth of 21 inches. The brick extends 20 inches out to the hardwood floor.

But.....now I'm really having second thoughts about the whole insert idea. With some re-arranging such as moving the couch or even replacing it with a shorter one, a free-standing stove would fit. There's so many more choices with free-standing stoves and I would be able to get one a bit larger and prices seem to be less as well. The only issue would be the height of the exhaust as the fireplace is only 30 inches tall...but I know several stoves vent out the back instead of the top at heights that would work.

Decisions, decisions, decisions.

Going to try to upload a pic of the fireplace (fingers crossed)

 

[LandscaperDarryl]

So how do I remove this damper....as you can see I've gotten as far as getting the door off.

 

[begreen]

You're right, the taper is an issue. A freestander will go in there. Take a look at BrotherBart's avatar. You can get that stove for under $1K and it is a serious heater. For your house the next size down, the 13NC would also work with a bit more feeding. That can be found for around $700. The hearth will need extending, but either should fit.

http://www.englanderstoves.com/wood_stoves.html

What is the throat width at the damper location?

 

[tkirk22]

So how do I remove this damper....as you can see I've gotten as far as getting the door off.

I widened the center of my damper with a hand grinder. I cut all the way through on the left and right sides and scored a line about half way through from left to right. Then take a hammer or vice grips and the cast will break along the line. I also smoothed out the break so that it doesn't cut into the liner. (Use safety glasses)

Harbor Freight sells a crappy little $10 grinder that's suitable for the job. If you spend $20 or so you can get one that's less crappy but should last a number of years.

Note: After you do that, you will not be able to use it as a conventional fireplace again. Then again, who would want to ;-)

 

[LandscaperDarryl]

What is the throat width at the damper location?

The throat is just a shade under 6 inches so I think I'd have to go to an oval liner pipe to get through it without enlarging it. I'm really not too keen about hacking it to make it larger. I do have an angle grinder and cut-off wheels though. I'd much prefer removing it entirely if it can be done without too much trouble.

That fireplace actually does a pretty good job of heating the house (once you get the masonry heated up) until temps drop down below freezing, then the furnace starts kicking on and defeats the purpose. Yeah...it does go thought a lot of wood...I have a 32 inch diameter circular wood rack and it would go through that in a day using qulaity hardwoods (oak, maple and cherry).

I guess I've got some more research to do as far as stoves.

 

[LandscaperDarryl]

Well...after pondering all this for a few days, I think I'm just gonna buy my stove from a shop and have them install it. My biggest issue is the liner and getting it down and I really don't have the time or patience for PITA stuff. It's about 30 feet from the ground to the chimney top and it's offset from the roof peak enough that I can't get it from there. I don't have a ladder that long or ever a ladder rack on my truck. Due to the fact that I'm the sole source of income for a family of 4 without disability insurance, I really don't wanna mess with the liner install. I really don't like having friends help with that kinda stuff either and my wife isn't much help and don't wanna put my 14 year old son at risk either. In my younger days I wouldn't have given it a second thought but it gets to a point where it's just not worth the risk. So I'll leave the damper up to him too.

I haven't gotten prices yet...waiting for the Avalon dealer to return my call..obviously he's pretty busy...but I talked to him a couple years back and I feel comfortable with him. At this point I've narrowed it down to a few choices ... I think the Avalon Rainier as either an insert or matle installation would fit the bill. Not sure if I'll get the blower...gonna discuss it all with him. I could sqeak the Olympic insert in there too...barely...but I think it would be overkill for my 1,600 ft sq cape but that looks lilke one SWEET stove. We'd be hanging out in our bathing suits in Feburary, lol.

Anyway...thanks for the input and I'll keep you posted. BTW...he's already booked out to October on installs. Word around here is that pellet stoves are the big sellers. Funny but my heating oil dealer ordered 100 cords of wood last week, lol.

Darryl

 

[RedRanger]

Funny but my heating oil dealer ordered 100 cords of wood last week, lol.

Darryl

Not surprising,, oil is a tough sell these days. Wanna bet he sells the wood for double what he paid for it? The guy still has to put bread on the table. :smirk:

 

[LandscaperDarryl]

No doubt. I think he bought the wood as log length and is gonna cut and split it himself. He has several business ventures...the heating oil company is a fairly new one...in it's third year i think. We may team up to thin out the old wood lot on my property...about 5 or 6 acres of oak forrest that hasn't been cut in about 40 years....plenty of 20+ inch white oaks in there...logs for him (he has a sawmill too), firewood for me and hopefully some cash in my pocket

Sorry...getting a little off topic here.