Finally joined here after years or browsing and researching. I’m looking for help finding the right stove. Last winter I picked up a used us stove (tractor supply) 2000eu stove. It is on the small side and had a hard time burning through the nice and actually heating the space. I’m looking for a larger stove and also I need to address fresh air. I needed to crack a window when using my kitchen exhaust. I’m thinking whether or not the fresh air intake is directly connected to the stove or piped fairly close nets the same results? I have my eye on the Vermont castings vigilant or defiant(used older non cat) because of the automatic damper, but I’m skeptical of cast iron stoves because of cracking and the fact that they are expensive or not repairable. Any stove recommendations or things I should be thinking about while I look around for used stoves? A couple things to consider Is its a new home in Massachusetts the we just built.it’s has an erv that is auto pressure balancing but can’t keep up to exhaust fans. I did a masonry chimney roughly 28’ tall 8” flue through an interior insulated chase in the house.is that the house is a one level (ranch) 1800sqft plus the entire basement (insulated basement) and I cut my wood off my 15 acres and have a splitter and tractor so fuel efficiency isn’t a major factor. Getting a nice consistent/ controllable heat, and long enough burn times to get me through a 10 hour day is my top priority.
Advice on picking a stove for a new tight home
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Get a modern, clean-burning stove that will burn cleaner, use less wood, and will provide a nice fire view. If the budget is tight, look at Century and Drolet stoves.
EbS-P
Minister of Fire
Central chimney and direct outside air kit might be difficult. Really need to figure out if you can adjust the ERV. How many cfm is the kitchen fan? What happens when the stove is going and you turn on the fan and forget to crack a window?
Really seems like you need to get more ERV capacity or figure out how to direct connect an outside air kit.
I shopped the used stove market in ME and NH last summer about this time. I was pretty specific in what I was looking for but even a year ago it seemed asking prices for 10+ year old stoves we’re not much cheaper than a new Drolet with a good warranty. Any thing in decent condition and price was sold in a day or two.
I like my Drolet. If you want something new for this winter don’t wait.
Really seems like you need to get more ERV capacity or figure out how to direct connect an outside air kit.
I shopped the used stove market in ME and NH last summer about this time. I was pretty specific in what I was looking for but even a year ago it seemed asking prices for 10+ year old stoves we’re not much cheaper than a new Drolet with a good warranty. Any thing in decent condition and price was sold in a day or two.
I like my Drolet. If you want something new for this winter don’t wait.
If on a slab yes, but not if there is a basement or crawl space. The basement is finished in this case so the question may be about an exposed duct running to the nearest sidewall.
I should have specified, the stove is on an outside wall but the chimney is interior in a chase vs exposed on the outside. So outside air is not a problem to direct connect. My kitchen exhaust is 600cfm, it will pull the Draft right back out the damper if I don’t open a window but my bath fans and clothes dryer don’t seem to bed a issue although it does effect the burn just not major enough to be a problem. My thought is either buy a newer stove with and outside air kit and hope that works well or do a larger makeup air inlet to my ductwork system to keep the house balanced at all times and probably not need a direct connection to my stove. In that case any stove will work? I’m kind of hung up on finding a stove with an automatic damper, I’ve never used one but it seems like it would be great compared to getting an uneven burn when I’m not there to babysit the fire during the night/work day.
I have used stoves with and without auto air control and honestly it isn't something I would worry about all that much. And certainly wouldn't buy an old pre EPA stove to get one. Get a modern stove with an outside air hookup. If you really want thermostatic control there are modern stoves with that as well
EbS-P
Minister of Fire
600 cfm really needs its own vent. I’m surprised that wasn’t required by code but maybe The ERV satisfied that requirement even if it’s undersized. I would consider adding a ceiling intake vent in the kitchen. Not sure If they have insulated louvered ones. I would be uncomfortable running a stove until I am 100% positive the running the kitchen fan without opening a window has no negative effects on draft at all burn stages.
Stove on an exterior wall you are all set to make the direct OAK connection. As far a thermostatic stoves go, Blaze king is the only one I might consider. And I really wanted one but I could not justify the increased cost. 1800 sq ft of new construction I would be curious to what your actual heating demand is.
The US 2000 was a 2.0 cu ft stove. I would call that a 6 -7 hour stove when it’s not super cold. Do you have a moisture meter. How long was your wood split and drying? Was the rain kept off? All this matters. Sizing a stove has so many variables and if shopping the used market I doubt you will find a good thermostatically controlled stove.
Read up on the VC stoves. They went through a period where their design was somewhat problematic and repairs can be expensive and not super durable. Used VC would not make my list. A used Jotul F500 I would buy for the right price. Used Woodstock would be another one I might consider.
Ashful
Minister of Fire
What's the budget?
28 feet of Ø8" flue is going to suck the paint off the walls, something to consider.
28 feet of Ø8" flue is going to suck the paint off the walls, something to consider.
It did pass code with the ERV but probably shouldn’t because it’s not really right…I’m also curious on the “correct” size stove I need. I’m really heating 3600 sq ft with heating the basement and living floor. The basement slab and walls are insulated but the ceiling is not. So I set it up with burning wood in mind. But it’s a bit tricky. My wood last winter was cut and stacked for 8-9 months I made crates from IBC totes and used the lids to cover them. I did have a hard time burning the oak I had to have the damper almost wide open.
ashful, can you explain what you mean? I assume you’re saying I should have a ton of draft? As for budget I suppose I’m pretty flexible. I’d I knew I was buying the “right” stove and I was going to have it for 30 years I could see buying a brand new blaze king or something but I was hoping I could get something a bit older for $1000 or less, but maybe that’s not the best approach…
Well I can tell you that heating 3600 SQ ft over multiple floors with one stove probably isn't going to happen. And if that is your intent go as high of BTU as possible.
And yes with your chimney height you will without question have way to much draft. I have a feeling many of your issues were due to wet wood more than anything else
Yes, you'll want a 3+ cu ft stove.
What size in BTU output is the current heating system for the house? How close is the proposed stove location to the stairwell? Is the stairwell open (no door)? How well did the Tractor Supply stove work?
What size in BTU output is the current heating system for the house? How close is the proposed stove location to the stairwell? Is the stairwell open (no door)? How well did the Tractor Supply stove work?
The HERS rating on the House called for 100k btu including the basement. The Stove I have (they rate it at 89kbtus but that seems a lot higher than other stoves are rated) Didn’t raise my thermostat higher than I had it set unless it was a mild sunny day. Which I honestly didn’t mind but it would be nice to have some more heat and be able to turn the stove down for longer burn times. So getting a bigger stove I think would be better as long as I don’t have to worry about going to big and not having high enough flue temps(which I don’t see being a problem for me based on the heat demand and the chimney I have). Does anyone know of a new non cat stove that has an automatic damper that I could look into? I’d rather avoid the cat stoves if possible but I honestly have to do more research to see if they are as much of a headache/expense as I assume they are.
stoveliker
Minister of Fire
I would say cat stoves are not the headache and expense. However, I do think you'd best get the largest noncats you can get if you want more than 89k BTU.
On the other hand, a tall chimney may result in a lot of heat being pulled up and out. Do you have a flue probe?
And wet wood results in a lot less heat available for heating the room because all that water needs to be boiled off.
So you likely can gain quite a bit with drier wood, a key damper, and a flue probe, before you buy another stove.
Bottom line, it may very well be that you didn't get 89k BTU per our out of that stove into your room.
My $0.02
On the other hand, a tall chimney may result in a lot of heat being pulled up and out. Do you have a flue probe?
And wet wood results in a lot less heat available for heating the room because all that water needs to be boiled off.
So you likely can gain quite a bit with drier wood, a key damper, and a flue probe, before you buy another stove.
Bottom line, it may very well be that you didn't get 89k BTU per our out of that stove into your room.
My $0.02
There are two main stoves that are currently thermostatically regulated, Blaze King and Vermont Castings. Of the two, I would recommend the Blaze King. My preference would be for a large non-cat with a better top end with the 100k btu rating. The US 2000-E is a small stove, only 1.6 cu ft. A big 3 cu ft stove will have a lot more reserve. In milder weather, load it with a half load (1.5 cu ft) and it will behave like the current smaller stove.
Ashful
Minister of Fire
I assume you mean BTUh, as in BTU per hour, and that 100k is your peak demand, not an average. Do you know your average BTUh, or total BTU/month for most of your heating season? Trying to get a sense of your wood usage, since you're shopping for horsepower, and horses need to eat.
stoveliker
Minister of Fire
Ashful
Minister of Fire
You'd think that should be correct, but you've been fooled by the evil metric system!
Seriously, this is just one of the ten thousand really stupid things about using imperial units for thermal problems. BTUh is conventionally used to mean BTU/h. Yes, I know it's backwards, but that's the established nomenclature. I spend my days converting between a sensible W/m°K and completely stupid Imperial systems, such as btu-in/ft2-hr-°f.
Here's the very first hit from Google, the Lennox heating site:
BRITISH THERMAL UNIT PER HOUR (BTUH)
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stoveliker
Minister of Fire
You mean BTU/h, not BTUh
A 100000 BTUh is 10k BTU for 10 hrs...
Something that is wrong, but I learned it, so I guess that's good thing.
Dimensioning units is not easy in this country...
A 100000 BTUh is 10k BTU for 10 hrs...
Hm. Lol. So I learned something here.
Something that is wrong, but I learned it, so I guess that's good thing.
Dimensioning units is not easy in this country...
Ashful
Minister of Fire
You're quick, I was still editing my reply above!
In any case, if you can find and hold whichever stuffy Brit came up with that stupid system, I promise I'll kick him squarely in the nuts for you.
Poindexter
Minister of Fire
I am not touching the BTU/hr thing with a ten foot pole until the chemical engineers are done with that little rabbit hole.
To the OP, my current home (way up north) is tight as a tick with no ventilation. My next home is going to have an HRV, or maybe even an ERV (had to look up the difference) but my woodstove in the house with and HRV/ERV will _definitely_ have an OAK (Outside Air Kit).
My OAK will be connected directly to the air intake on the woodstove so there will be zero issues with the HRV equipped HVAC system unless the loading door is open.
There is no good reason (in a tight but ventilated home) to feed conditioned air to a woodstove for combustion, and it makes the HVAC system harder to balance. In my current 1980 build where I am dealing with mold issues, not having an outside air kit gives me some air flow. My current home is basically Heated with no VAC.
As far as the two floors, I would plan to keep the basement about 10 degrees above the dew point with whatever your primary system is (oil? NG? electric? etc...) and put the wood stove on the same floor where you and your family spend the most time. If you spend most of your time upstairs and the 28' chimney is measured from the basement floor you can probably just plug and play any number of stoves on the upper level without excessive draft.
Trying to get 100,000 BTU per hour out of one stove for ten hours is 1,000,000 BTUs loaded in the firebox, about 1/18 of a cord of spruce or a 7.1 cubic foot firebox. If you have unlimited access to mixed oak (Quercus sp.) you could get away with a 5.1 cubic foot firebox. Not gonna happen. You could get two wood stoves in the 3 cubic foot firebox range, and feed them about a cord per month in your heating season. That will get old very quickly. I burn a touch over a full cord every January and it sucks donkey parts. Feb first is one of my favorite days on the calendar, because my wood consumption is decreasing.
FWIW my oil fired boiler (hot water baseboard) is rated at 100-120 k BTU/hr depending on what question you ask, my 3.0 cubic foot firebox woodstove is rated around 50k BTU/hr max, and my home is tight with 2x6 walls, fiberglass batt and vapor barrier. I have roughly R infinity in the attic with blown in. At -45dF I am loading my stove three times daily, the boiler is at max duty cycle, but I am maintaining roughly +80dF on the upper level (I have 1200 sqft up and another 1200sqft down, stove is upstairs) and the wife is still in summer clothes. At -50dF I have a hard time maintaining +75dF upstairs with the wood stove raging on three feedings daily, and at -55dF I get concerned about the power going off and the pipes freezing in the crawlspace. During previous power outages I have calculated I have 8-10 hours to get my generator hooked up and the boiler running again before I have frozen pipes at -55dF outdoor ambient, incoming potable water is at 110psi . The pipes for the hot water baseboard are glycol'd for -70dF.
A 3 cubic foot firebox with adequate dry fuel made a very pleasant dent in my oil bill. I was buying about 1500 gallons per year before the wood stove went in, now 800-1000 gallons annually since 2014. 500 gallons minimum savings, I saw heating oil (cash and carry, not delivered) @$4.47/ gallon this week.... $2200 per year savings, plus you can cancel your gym membership....no brainer.
On the one hand you are in a new home "we just built it," but one the other hand you were running a wood stove last winter. What was your actual energy consumption last winter (oil + electric + natural gas + solar + cordwood and etcetera), and was the house as warm as you wanted it to be?
I agree with begreen you should start looking at stoves with a firebox of size of 3 cubic feet and up.
To the OP, my current home (way up north) is tight as a tick with no ventilation. My next home is going to have an HRV, or maybe even an ERV (had to look up the difference) but my woodstove in the house with and HRV/ERV will _definitely_ have an OAK (Outside Air Kit).
My OAK will be connected directly to the air intake on the woodstove so there will be zero issues with the HRV equipped HVAC system unless the loading door is open.
There is no good reason (in a tight but ventilated home) to feed conditioned air to a woodstove for combustion, and it makes the HVAC system harder to balance. In my current 1980 build where I am dealing with mold issues, not having an outside air kit gives me some air flow. My current home is basically Heated with no VAC.
As far as the two floors, I would plan to keep the basement about 10 degrees above the dew point with whatever your primary system is (oil? NG? electric? etc...) and put the wood stove on the same floor where you and your family spend the most time. If you spend most of your time upstairs and the 28' chimney is measured from the basement floor you can probably just plug and play any number of stoves on the upper level without excessive draft.
Trying to get 100,000 BTU per hour out of one stove for ten hours is 1,000,000 BTUs loaded in the firebox, about 1/18 of a cord of spruce or a 7.1 cubic foot firebox. If you have unlimited access to mixed oak (Quercus sp.) you could get away with a 5.1 cubic foot firebox. Not gonna happen. You could get two wood stoves in the 3 cubic foot firebox range, and feed them about a cord per month in your heating season. That will get old very quickly. I burn a touch over a full cord every January and it sucks donkey parts. Feb first is one of my favorite days on the calendar, because my wood consumption is decreasing.
FWIW my oil fired boiler (hot water baseboard) is rated at 100-120 k BTU/hr depending on what question you ask, my 3.0 cubic foot firebox woodstove is rated around 50k BTU/hr max, and my home is tight with 2x6 walls, fiberglass batt and vapor barrier. I have roughly R infinity in the attic with blown in. At -45dF I am loading my stove three times daily, the boiler is at max duty cycle, but I am maintaining roughly +80dF on the upper level (I have 1200 sqft up and another 1200sqft down, stove is upstairs) and the wife is still in summer clothes. At -50dF I have a hard time maintaining +75dF upstairs with the wood stove raging on three feedings daily, and at -55dF I get concerned about the power going off and the pipes freezing in the crawlspace. During previous power outages I have calculated I have 8-10 hours to get my generator hooked up and the boiler running again before I have frozen pipes at -55dF outdoor ambient, incoming potable water is at 110psi . The pipes for the hot water baseboard are glycol'd for -70dF.
A 3 cubic foot firebox with adequate dry fuel made a very pleasant dent in my oil bill. I was buying about 1500 gallons per year before the wood stove went in, now 800-1000 gallons annually since 2014. 500 gallons minimum savings, I saw heating oil (cash and carry, not delivered) @$4.47/ gallon this week.... $2200 per year savings, plus you can cancel your gym membership....no brainer.
On the one hand you are in a new home "we just built it," but one the other hand you were running a wood stove last winter. What was your actual energy consumption last winter (oil + electric + natural gas + solar + cordwood and etcetera), and was the house as warm as you wanted it to be?
I agree with begreen you should start looking at stoves with a firebox of size of 3 cubic feet and up.
Ashful
Minister of Fire
The BTU vs. BTUh thing was just an aside, this was the place I was headed, with it. To put it in the most technical of terms, that's a crap-ton of wood.
But again, I do NOT believe the OP needs 100k BTUh on average, to heat 3600 sq.ft. in Massachussettes, I suspect this is only a peak number. The OP will need to confirm this, and give us a suspected average or net, to come up with some useful usage predictions.
The numbers and units aside, 3600 sq.ft. in Massachussettes, you're looking at big stoves. The only point of debating BTU's above, was to determine how frequently you'll be loading it.
For comparison, one wing of my house has approximately 3600 sq.ft. of finished space, and I'm likely only putting 50% of that load onto one of my two BK30's, closing off two of the four floors to most of the stove heat. I'm well south of MA, but in a house with much different dynamics and efficiency, which may make our load more similar than might be assumed.
stoveliker
Minister of Fire
Well sort of they are designed to burn continuously under worst case scenario conditions. Wood stoves also don't put out that max BTU for very long either
my head is spinning a bit on the btu demand. I understand the concept but am not sure how I would figure out my actually usage. I like the mathematical approach it should be pretty fool proof, however there are so many variables with wood moisture,species,ect im leaning towards just getting a large non cat stove and hopefully dialing in how much to load it. On thing that caught my attention from poindexter was hooking the OAK directly to the stove so you have sealed combustion just like any direct vented appliance. That makes the most sense to me in my situation but seems to be a major no no around here from what I had read. From what I have seen all manufacturers purposely use an indirect connection I assume to prevent the combustion from exiting the intake in a worst case scenario?
As long as you can have the intake for your oak below where it hooks to the stove go ahead and hook it up directly
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