Another insert question

[Syd'sDad]

Hello from Central Indiana, long time lurker, first time poster. First, I would like to say thanks for all the great info on this site, it has truly be helpful. Unfortunately now I am at a point where I need additional assistance so here it goes.

House: 1966 colonial construction, insulation is just ok, but working on it (moved in November of 2013). Total square footage is 3,663. Main floor and 2nd story are around 2800, not worried about basement being heated as this insert idea is for supplemental heat to our 2 natural gas furnaces. The room that the insert would be installed is on the west end of the home on main floor into a masonry chimney (25 ft.) on an exterior wall. This living room is 520 sq. ft. with several windows, and has two entry/exit points on the eastern wall of the room across from fireplace. Fireplace is red brick/concrete and is 41" W 24" D (at bottom to front) and 31" high to the lentel and sits on floor level.

Stoves we are considering: Kuma Sequoia Insert and Lopi/FireplaceX/Travis Industries Flush mount hybrid Fyre.

So far I seem to be leaning to the kuma while the wife likes the flush mount look a little better. I have obtained one estimate for each unit's install. Here they are:

Kuma Sequoia: $2700 to 2800 shipped to my house (without blower)

Flushmount Hybrid Fyre: Unit w/ arched door, green start option, and tax at $3,991.10 Install would be additional $550.00 and flue kit would be $1,200-$1,400. Total: approximately $5,741 to $5,941. (not what I was wanting to spend).

Also I must mention I have been working with a sweep who quoted me for install of stove, liner which he would order (25 ft. 6 inch SS, rain cap, adapter, connector, top plate, insulation wrap) for $1,787.00. I have now asked for an estimate on an 8 inch liner and am awaiting that.

My questions are as follows:
1. Do you think the estimate for the liner/install is quoted by the sweep is fair?
2. Wife is concerned the Kuma could stick out too far into room, but with a sequoia's depth of 24 inches and a height of 22.5 inches in my fireplace I am not sure how far it will stick out. My fireplace does curve inward towards the front at the back wall so I measured up to the point of the 22.5 inches and then out to the front 24 inches and it looks like the sequoia will protrude into the room a little over an inch (excluding door). Does this sound correct? (Note: I will also be updating/improving the hearth tiles before an insert goes in I need to figure out how far the unit will stick out from fireplace in order to get the required 18 inches.
3. I have been attempting to shop around for liner and insulation wraps online and feel I could be saving money if I ordered my own online and had the sweep do install?? Also do you think this could offend the sweep if I asked him for just a labor estimate?

Sorry for the novel, and yes I have been CSS'ing wood.

 

[begreen]

Welcome. If you can fit the Sequoia and have the room in the chimney to install an 8" liner then I would lean toward that choice. It is a more established stove and will heat better, especially if there is a power outage.

Make a mockup of the insert out of cardboard so that you can do a pre-check on fit.

 

[bholler]

About 1800 is not out of line depending on the type of liner. I am sure you could get a cheaper liner but i can tell you we will not install liners supplied by the homeowner not because of the loss of income but because we use liners we are used to and we trust i dont think your sweep should be offended if you ask but don't be surprised if they say no

 

[Syd'sDad]

Thanks for the fast replies. I was told the liner would be a SS 316ti "relined pipe" single wall. That is all I know about the liner. I did see online where the Kuma comes with two surrounds, one that is 44" W and 30.5"H and 48"W and 34H. Wife wants to see as much red brick as possible around insert but I am concerned smaller surround might not work due to 31" H of my fireplace. Does anyone know if the surrounds are adjustable at all?? Gotta consider the WAF factor....

 

[bholler]

no they are not adjustable and that description doesnt tell us much about the type of liner. With that description i would guess it is light wall in which case the price sounds a little high but not to bad

 

[Speed trap]

Welcome fellow Hooiser... Great site you will learn a lot

 

[Syd'sDad]

Thanks Speed trap,

Update: I emailed Kuma detailing my situation and specs a few days ago but have yet to hear back. Probably due to high volume requests and time of season. Thinking about raising hearth tiles approximately a half inch or a little higher in order to be able to use the smaller surround that the wife prefers. If I do raise the hearth that sits at floor level could I then place something in the fireplace to level it with the higher hearth ? Will attempt to post a pic if I can figure that out.

 

[velvetfoot]

If you can sell the non-flush concept, I would. I don't know the insert, but it's nice to be able to load your typical 16" long piece from front to back. They don't roll out and you can stack more in it. Plus, as you said, you can probably get some useful heat out of it in a power outage. I think it'd probably be worth the extra effort to do.

I don't know about the Kumma surround, but ours also was a little short and it was cast iron. The installer put together a custom, welded, surround from flat steel,painted black, etc. It turned out nice.

 

[Syd'sDad]

Thanks velvetfoot,

I am really pushing for the Kuma Sequoia over the flush mount Lopi/FireplaceX for a few reasons.
1. Its a better value I believe....less money, more heat and can work in a power outage.
2. Having an insert that protrudes a little from the fireplace provides more heat from what I have gathered.
3. Wife loves the look of the flush mount but with a 2 yr old and another to arrive in April we will be placing a screen of some sort in front of the insert anyway so the insert itself won't matter due to having a screen that will stick out from the fireplace.

I just measured the vertical clearance from where the firebox (22.5" high) to our combustible mantle is 30.25". The Kuma manual states it needs 30" clearance so maybe increasing the height of the hearth is not the best option.

 

[velvetfoot]

If you get a decent installer, he'll make it work.

 

[Syd'sDad]

Here is a pic of the fireplace.

 

[Syd'sDad]

Measurements are 41" wide and 31.5" tall. Kuma only makes two surrounds 44"W/30.5"H and 48"W/34"H. I think my wife is ok with the Sequoia looks now but wants as much brick exposed as possible as do I. I called Kuma and asked if they make custom size surrounds. I spoke to Jason at Kuma, who was very friendly and professional, and he informed me they could trim the top of the larger surround to 32" H but cannot trim the sides down. This now makes me think that I need to make, or have made, a custom surround without it looking like junk metal around a nice stove. Anyone have experience in doing this? What materials and paint would I have to use to make it look like the stove?

Thanks again!

 

[Syd'sDad]

Update:

I have ordered the Sequoia insert. My chimney sweep just got back to me with an estimate for an 8 inch liner and insulation kit and install for 2,157.00.

Does this sound reasonable??

 

[velvetfoot]

I have no idea on the reasonableness, but is the guy competent? References? Is he going to make a custom surround?

 

[Syd'sDad]

Update:

Sorry I haven't posted in a while, been super busy. Recently had another sweep out to the house for another estimate. He felt that a basement install would be best due to the fact that I already had a thimble in the wall already and an unused 12x12 35 ft terra cotta flu. I also spoke to Mark Freeman, owner and president of Kuma, who agreed on the basement install. So I ordered the free standing Kuma Sequoia and received it a few days ago (lugged it into the house myself, total shipping weight was 550 lbs and was not fun).

So my new sweep said he would have to open up the concrete block wall by the thimble to be able to connect the liner to the double wall pipe from the stove. The sweep said he would be installing a 35 ft "M flex" liner and double wall pipe that would 90 into the wall from the stove and would install a "b vent" in the wall for $1,800. Does this sound like an okay price?

 

[bholler]

If he actually said "b vent" when talking about a wood stove venting system you should show him the door and never let him in your house again. There in most cases is also no reason to open up the wall to connect but there might be something complicating things in your case.

 

[Syd'sDad]

Maybe some pics can help clarify. The terra cotta is about 20 inches away from the thimble.

 

[bholler]

Yeah ok that needs opened up i dont know who built that but wow that is bad. But i am sure it can be fixed with a liner. But absolutely not with b vent

 

[Syd'sDad]

I will call installer later and ask for clarification. Thanks for the heads up.

 

[Ram 1500 with an axe...]

Do you have a picture of this new unit? So you want to heat your basement over having the heat and ambiance in your living space? Thanks.....

 

[Syd'sDad]

Will provide pic when I get home. Was told by kuma and my installer that the heat would rise to the upstairs and that if I didn't like the basement install I could take off the legs and install it in the living room. I also have a walkout basement door pretty close to the stove.

 

[bholler]

Allot of guys here really dont like basement installs but they are very common in our area and if done right they can work very well.

 

[Syd'sDad]

Here is a pic of the unit w/o door or legs yet.

 

[Ram 1500 with an axe...]

Great, thanks, good luck with it, keep us posted through the process....when will it be ready to burn.......

 

[Syd'sDad]

Installation begins this coming Wednesday but might not be done that day due to weather so maybe the week after. In reference to the b vent comment I was mistaken. My installer stated to me that he was looking for a b vent type of connector for my install. He explained the install again to me and seems to make sense.

Also to your ambiance comment I was told that the sequoia doesn't really have much of an air wash and will slowly blacken the glass door while it cooks low and slow but will burn it off when you reload it an burn a bigger fire before engaging the cat again. This was one factor in making a basement install decision due to not a great fire view.