Backup for P68... My head hurts

[Rockbase]

Ok, So a while back when we purchased out house, we also purchased a backup generator, which is wired to provide the house power. As you know, the pellet stove only works on a true sign wave generator. I have no idea why since my 2 offices with pc's, large screen tvs, ect all work fine with the generator and a APC Line-R line conditioner. Anyway, so I need a plan for heat should power go out.

Case 1 Inverter: Harman's specs are not correct, if you took the wattage they said was norm-run (384 watts)
120vac, 3.2amps and for inverter spec, you use the 384w / (12vdc * 87% (efficiency)) you come up with
36.8 amp-hours needed or about 295 amp-Hr battery to last 8 hours.
I called Harman (No help but thanks), and the sales for Surefire 512H , who gave me the Mfg direct line
who went over the math with me and decided Harmins listed wattage is incorrect.
In any case, if you purchased a sure fire $500-$600 dollars, and 1- 100 amp battery $100.00 you would get
8 hrs of power, followed by upto 20 hrs of charging the battery back up, in which case you will need
not 1, but 2 to 3 battery's to rotate in order to keep heat running, total cost Just under $1000.00

Case 2 Generator. I have a XG8000E generator, $1250.00 at the time. A XP8000E should run the house and
the pellet stove (The original heat backup) but costs $2,500.00 plus tax. Even If I could sell my old
generator for a grand, the cost to upgrade would be $1,700.00, but clean.

Case 3 Generator 2. I could buy a small under 2000 watt, gas portable (Hand carry) generator with pure
sinewave inverter. This would just run the pellet stove, 2 gals 10 hrs (Best case). Cost $600.00

Case 4: Alternate heat source. Look into an alternate heat source (Wasn't that what the pellet stove was supposed
to be?) Unknown at this point, unknown cost.

Any suggestions would be appreciated as it looks like my best option is a portable 1-2000 watt inverter generator
to run the pellet stove. I really do love my pellet stove, but if i could turn the clock back, I guess I should
have purchased a wood stove, like we used to have. But that's spilled milk, now I just need to know how
to heat my house when the power goes out. P.S. I do have a BE750 hooked up to prevent smoke on a
power out shut down from entering the house.

 

[IHATEPROPANE]

Ok, So a while back when we purchased out house, we also purchased a backup generator, which is wired to provide the house power. As you know, the pellet stove only works on a true sign wave generator. I have no idea why since my 2 offices with pc's, large screen tvs, ect all work fine with the generator and a APC Line-R line conditioner. Anyway, so I need a plan for heat should power go out.

Case 1 Inverter: Harman's specs are not correct, if you took the wattage they said was norm-run (384 watts)
120vac, 3.2amps and for inverter spec, you use the 384w / (12vdc * 87% (efficiency)) you come up with
36.8 amp-hours needed or about 295 amp-Hr battery to last 8 hours.
I called Harman (No help but thanks), and the sales for Surefire 512H , who gave me the Mfg direct line
who went over the math with me and decided Harmins listed wattage is incorrect.
In any case, if you purchased a sure fire $500-$600 dollars, and 1- 100 amp battery $100.00 you would get
8 hrs of power, followed by upto 20 hrs of charging the battery back up, in which case you will need
not 1, but 2 to 3 battery's to rotate in order to keep heat running, total cost Just under $1000.00

Case 2 Generator. I have a XG8000E generator, $1250.00 at the time. A XP8000E should run the house and
the pellet stove (The original heat backup) but costs $2,500.00 plus tax. Even If I could sell my old
generator for a grand, the cost to upgrade would be $1,700.00, but clean.

Case 3 Generator 2. I could buy a small under 2000 watt, gas portable (Hand carry) generator with pure
sinewave inverter. This would just run the pellet stove, 2 gals 10 hrs (Best case). Cost $600.00

Case 4: Alternate heat source. Look into an alternate heat source (Wasn't that what the pellet stove was supposed
to be?) Unknown at this point, unknown cost.

Any suggestions would be appreciated as it looks like my best option is a portable 1-2000 watt inverter generator
to run the pellet stove. I really do love my pellet stove, but if i could turn the clock back, I guess I should
have purchased a wood stove, like we used to have. But that's spilled milk, now I just need to know how
to heat my house when the power goes out. P.S. I do have a BE750 hooked up to prevent smoke on a
power out shut down from entering the house.

Try running the generator you have with the Harman. See if it operates normally.

 

[BrotherBart]

Ok, So a while back when we purchased out house,

Uh. Oh never mind.

 

[Rockbase]

Try running the generator you have with the Harman. See if it operates normally.

This website has a whole bunch of "Dont run your pelletstove with a non true sinewave generator" posts.
Thats why I havent done it.
wouldnt want to wreck a $3000+ stove just to see if it works on the generator.

 

[jackman]

My Harman Accentra draws no where near that much current. The 384W is probably for when the igniter is on/heating. During normal running the power consumption on mine is about 75-100W. You should put a watt wizard on your stove to get the exact number.

I would just use the generator you have and install a true sine wave UPS (APC Smart-UPS 750 or equivalent) between the stove and your generator. That will insure you have clean power and protect the stove from a brown out and/or dirty power from the generator.

 

[IHATEPROPANE]

This website has a whole bunch of "Dont run your pelletstove with a non true sinewave generator" posts.
Thats why I havent done it.
wouldnt want to wreck a $3000+ stove just to see if it works on the generator.

Well, worst case is you fry the board. That's only a few hundred. Less than a new TV or PC I am sure, Which you trusted the generator to run.

 

[IHATEPROPANE]

My Harman Accentra draws no where near that much current. The 384W is probably for when the igniter is on/heating. During normal running the power consumption on mine is about 75-100W. You should put a watt wizard on your stove to get the exact number.

I would just use the generator you have and install a true sine wave UPS (APC Smart-UPS 750 or equivalent) between the stove and your generator. That will insure you have clean power and protect the stove from a brown out and/or dirty power from the generator.

Most UPS just pass through the electricity as is coming from the generator. Unless it is of poor quality and the UPS doesn't like it, then it just runs off the battery of the UPS until the battery dies.
I have a Champion generator that I use. I also run a UPS in between things most of the time. The power is normally good enough to not trip the UPS. Exceptions are when I plug something new in or turn something new on. And it doesn't like certain combinations of things, regardless of Watt Draw. Not sure exactly why this occurs.

 

[SidecarFlip]

Uh. Oh never mind.

I was going to comment until I saw your comment.... I do have to ask why anyone would need auxillary power in the form of a standby genset for an outhouse, but maybe I shouldn't ask.......

 

[SidecarFlip]

This website has a whole bunch of "Dont run your pelletstove with a non true sinewave generator" posts.
Thats why I havent done it.
wouldnt want to wreck a $3000+ stove just to see if it works on the generator.

This is my opinion and comment barring any liability if your board becomes a toaster.

Run your Harman on your backup, auxillary genny so long as the rest of your house is wired to it via a vacuum breaker transfer switch and your backup genny is a quality unit like a Generac. Should be no issue. We run our stove on our genny (Generac 17 KW propain fired standby) and have for at least 15 years no issue, computers, TV's, central furnace (that happens to be an ultra high efficiency Bryant electronic unit.

Having said that, I wouldn't run any pellet stove, or my computer, or my furnace or my CPAP machine on a cheap genny like a Harbor Fright unit, with questionable modified sine wave (or dirtier) wave form, thats asking for troubles. DIRECTLY, DEDICATED HOOK UP.

If I was to run any sensitive electronic appratus DIRECTLY, it would be with a pure sine wave genny.... and I have one of those, it's a Yamaha, 7 pole 2800 watt genny for the RV and it cost almost 2 grand itself.

\IMO, your Harman will motor along just fine on your WHOLE HOUSE STANDBY GENNY.

Lets all hope you don't have standby power on your outhouse unless you are inordinately well to do.

 

[SidecarFlip]

And it doesn't like certain combinations of things, regardless of Watt Draw. Not sure exactly why this occurs.

The reason why is because the additional load drops the crankshaft RPM below 3600 RPM (which is what it has to be to maintain 60cps with a 2 pole generator head like your Champion has) for a long enough time that your conditioner senses the CPS drop and most likely the wave form disruption and shunts the genny out and switched to battery power.

Appreciate what you have (conditioner), not what might occur without it.

 

[railfanron]

I agree with Sidecar. I also have a Generac and it runs the P43 and everything else just fine. No problems with power in 6 years. I have a whole house surge protector for all items except my computer equipment which have UPSs so they stay on for the 30 seconds until the genny takes over.
Ron

 

[SidecarFlip]

I don't even do that Ron. I figure the existing static load (everything on line when the transfer switch/genny assumes the load), smooths out the transition. My trandfer switch will full load 17KW switch from line to standby and back. Never tried it, but I'm sure if Generac says it will, it will.

I put my Fluke True RMS multimeter on my Generac and checked the cps under light, moderate and full rated load and the CPS varies about 1% maximum. That tells me that Generac conservatively rates their units. Applying a full 17KW load and no apparent drop in engine speed is the give away. My wife likes the genny. Her clothes dryer dries faster and the stove heats up quicker.

 

[DougA]

I had a Honda 1KW that puts out a pure sine wave and should cost just over $500 range. When the power is off for more than a few hours, I plug in our large fridge and leave it for half an hour until it gets back to normal, then plug in our freezer - same thing. Then I plug in anything else that I want to run. I sold that for a good price and got a 2KW Honda because if I wanted to run my electric tools (compressor/power saws), the 1KW could not handle it. I think I paid about $1200. Cdn.

We had 5 days w/o power in 2013 and it was just fine. Yes, you have to scrimp a bit and there's no hot showers but a generac is way past my $$ limit for the rare time it's needed. I know people with generacs and when they let it sit for a few years, then need it, it won't go.

 

[SidecarFlip]

I know people with generacs and when they let it sit for a few years, then need it, it won't go.

That don't apply to a standby unit like Ron and the OP and I own. They run weekly by themselves, have on board battery chargers and on board diagnostics plus they run on propane or NG so no stale gasoline issue. In other words, barring catastrophic failure, they are basically bulletproof and 100% reliable. I've had mine over 10 years. I just change the oil and filter yearly, the air filter and sparkplugs and new battery every 5 years and a valve adjustment and it's good to go.

It's as close to turnkey as you can get.

I have mine set to run (exercise) every Sunday morning at 8am.

 

[BrotherBart]

That don't apply to a standby unit like Ron and the OP and I own.

The OP doesn't have a standby generator. The XG8000E is a portable. A big honkin portable, but a portable just the same.

 

[railfanron]

My whole house surge protector is more for line voltage surges than for the genny and the UPSs are on my fileserver as it's accessed over the web as well as at home. I also have one on the satellite box and TV to keep the sat box from rebooting. When it reboots it's several minutes before you get TV back. This keeps wifey happy.
Ron

 

[chken]

Ok, So a while back when we purchased out house, we also purchased a backup generator, which is wired to provide the house power. As you know, the pellet stove only works on a true sign wave generator. I have no idea why since my 2 offices with pc's, large screen tvs, ect all work fine with the generator and a APC Line-R line conditioner. Anyway, so I need a plan for heat should power go out.

Case 1 Inverter: Harman's specs are not correct, if you took the wattage they said was norm-run (384 watts)
120vac, 3.2amps and for inverter spec, you use the 384w / (12vdc * 87% (efficiency)) you come up with
36.8 amp-hours needed or about 295 amp-Hr battery to last 8 hours.
I called Harman (No help but thanks), and the sales for Surefire 512H , who gave me the Mfg direct line
who went over the math with me and decided Harmins listed wattage is incorrect.
In any case, if you purchased a sure fire $500-$600 dollars, and 1- 100 amp battery $100.00 you would get
8 hrs of power, followed by upto 20 hrs of charging the battery back up, in which case you will need
not 1, but 2 to 3 battery's to rotate in order to keep heat running, total cost Just under $1000.00

Case 2 Generator. I have a XG8000E generator, $1250.00 at the time. A XP8000E should run the house and
the pellet stove (The original heat backup) but costs $2,500.00 plus tax. Even If I could sell my old
generator for a grand, the cost to upgrade would be $1,700.00, but clean.

Case 3 Generator 2. I could buy a small under 2000 watt, gas portable (Hand carry) generator with pure
sinewave inverter. This would just run the pellet stove, 2 gals 10 hrs (Best case). Cost $600.00

Case 4: Alternate heat source. Look into an alternate heat source (Wasn't that what the pellet stove was supposed
to be?) Unknown at this point, unknown cost.

Any suggestions would be appreciated as it looks like my best option is a portable 1-2000 watt inverter generator
to run the pellet stove. I really do love my pellet stove, but if i could turn the clock back, I guess I should
have purchased a wood stove, like we used to have. But that's spilled milk, now I just need to know how
to heat my house when the power goes out. P.S. I do have a BE750 hooked up to prevent smoke on a
power out shut down from entering the house.

Case1: I'll guess that the 3.2amps is for when the igniter is on, and that the normal run wattage is in the 100watt range.
Case 2: I don't think that's a good option at all.

Case 3: I've seen a portable gas Ramsond Sinemate 1500 at Home Depot for $400. It's pure sine, and you want to size it for max efficiency so that it runs as long as possible with few fillups. So, you don't need a 2000 watt portable, you can probably get by with 1000 peak watts, but 1500 to be safe.

Case 4: Many pellet stove run just fine on a stepped sine wave, mine does, but I thought Harmans do an auto shutdown if it senses a stepped wave. You could try a pure sine UPS to run off your existing generator. I have a large 1500VA pure sine CyberPower UPS that lasts 65 minutes on a ~100 watt draw. The key question is whether or not it will charge off the stepped wave from your generator. If it does, then you're all set and a pure sine UPS like mine only cost me about $165, I think. Smaller models can cost as little as $118 at Newegg.

 

[chken]

...We had 5 days w/o power in 2013 and it was just fine. Yes, you have to scrimp a bit and there's no hot showers but a generac is way past my $$ limit for the rare time it's needed. I know people with generacs and when they let it sit for a few years, then need it, it won't go.

Weird, usually those standby Generacs have an automatic weekly 20min exercise cycle, that way it's ready to go when it's needed.

 

[SidecarFlip]

The OP doesn't have a standby generator. The XG8000E is a portable. A big honkin portable, but a portable just the same.

Ohwee... You are right. I think I'd take the big portable to run the out house and get standby genny running on gaseous fuel with auto exercise for the real house.

I don't like portable anything unless it's a pure sine wave like I have for my rv. Problem with a portable is the non use time and stale gas. Not a good combination.

If any honki'in portable, one that runs on LP over gasoline.

I retract my comments about running theHarman on it. Portable power is still marginal. Don't want to be responsible for a toasted circuit board...lol

 

[Dr.Faustus]

cheap & easy fix for all this...

Kerosene heater as a backup. shut the stove down if the power goes out. Pick up a kerosene heater. new, about 125.00 or you can find great used ones at yard sales for 25.00
Keep a few blue containers of kerosene on hand.

you'll have plenty of heat if the power kicks out. Sure its not as clean as the stove, and you smell it on startup and shutdown. Its not the cheapest to run - but its a good option if you dont lose power frequent and the duration of those outages is usually 1-2 days at a time.

 

[HOGG0494]

I was in the same boat last year.i shopped around online and found a few companies sell a honda eu2000i inverter generator new for $899 shipped to my door.rated best inverstor generator by about everyone.then i went to ebay and for $69 i purchased a xtended run fuel tank setup for it.this adds aditional 2.5 gallons and now i can run my honda for 24-36hrs without having to fill up.i figure if i lose power i will want the xtra watts to run other things.if you want the less expensive way out get the generac 800 watt inverter generator for $299 and you can run your stove and a few lights

 

[alternativeheat]

I use a portable generator and when the power goes out I put the house on the oil burner. The generator runs all our major appliances and the tenants as well. Give us light, heat, hot water. What more do you need in a power outage ? Everyone has struck the fear into me as well regarding the Harman, but I'm pretty sure the new Harmans just shut down if the power isn't clean. Besides that I never heard of anyone reporting a fried board on this site. Usually dirty power sends electronics whacko , motors drag etc. but not so sure anything actually fries. More than likely it just won't run . Still I sense this little fear of others here and so instead I Just don't run it on the gen.

People talk like the pellet stove is their only source of heat on here sometimes. I don't know about other places but an average outage here is less than one day. A bigger one maybe 3 days. Very Very rarely it could be a week. Ok so take the worst, one week out of a heating season on oil is not worth fretting over, is not worth buying a second generator for, is not worth a head ache.

 

[HOGG0494]

I hear ya alternative heat but some like me have propane heat not oil.and no backup generator(until my honda inverter this year)got caught last year with a 2 day outage in middle of winter at 8 below.the house went cold quick with no generator.since i had to buy one anyway now i went with the inverter to be stove safe

 

[IHATEPROPANE]

The reason why is because the additional load drops the crankshaft RPM below 3600 RPM (which is what it has to be to maintain 60cps with a 2 pole generator head like your Champion has) for a long enough time that your conditioner senses the CPS drop and most likely the wave form disruption and shunts the genny out and switched to battery power.

Appreciate what you have (conditioner), not what might occur without it.

It's not a speed issue. I can see the Hz display on the UPS and i have also run a Kill a Watt along with it. The Hz stays between 60.0-60.2. The wattage draw doesn't matter. For instance, I can have the TV, stove and cable box on. But not TV, stove and DVD. Even though the DVD draws nearly zero watts when plugged in (not playing). Seems like there is an interference,feedback issue that the UPS senses.
The drop in speed you mention is the reason why the UPS clicks on for a split second when something is added to the circuit.

 

[bogieb]

Use the generator to run your primary heat source (you did say the pellet stove was an alternative heat source, so I assume you have a primary). Unless your power goes out for several weeks at a time (on a semi-regular basis), you'll most likely spend less than any of your mentioned options.

The Harman should shut itself down if it doesn't like the power supplied. Just put it on a APC BE750G UPS; the Harman will shut itself down gracefully and run the exhaust fan to eliminate any potential for smoke leaking into the room. and if you do get the APC - they go on sale for $75-$85 on a regular basis (don't pay the $107 it currently shows on Amazon)

Edit: See New Egg has that UPS for $89 and possibly free shipping.